Vintage Modern

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Vintage Modern

Postby Alain Benoit » Thu May 10, 2012 2:57 pm

Fourth amp in the series is a Marshall Vintage Modern 2466.
It is a hundred watt KT66 based head done in indigo Tolex® and in the classic JCM style.

I've always wanted to hear this amp.

Tonight Mike Setchell of Al gallant and the Generators will be test driving it first, Mike owns many Marshalls and I am looking forward to his opinion of it.

Stand by for further discussion.

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Re: Vintage Modern

Postby Scott DeVarenne » Wed May 16, 2012 1:26 am

So I went and took the Vintage Modern for a spin. I like that it's a single channel amp. That made it less intimidating, easier for me to tackle/wrap my head around, and I needed it to be easy because this was only the 2nd or 3rd time I've played a Marshall.
Where do I begin? How about at the left?
It has a power switch and a standby switch. Fancy. But wait, it gets better.
Next is the power indicator light, which is purple. A real nice purple. I can't over emphasize just how much little things like that mean to me.
Reverb. 'Plate' emulation. I'm guessing that means it's digital(?). Why? Why? The weight? The amp is already 50lbs, what's a couple more? The verb does sound great but it's just soooooooo looooooonnnnnnnnnnng. Even with just a smidgen mixed in, it still wasn't doing it for me.
Master volume is post phase inverter/splitter. Very cool. Ask me why.
Presence, Bass, Mid, Treble. They work, allowing you to fine tune things, but are second fiddle to the real tone shaping tools, which are-
Detail and Body Preamp Volumes and the Mid Boost. To (over)simplify, Detail/Body are respectively high frequency gain/low frequency gain. My initial sense was that they didn't so much determine the clean vs saturation aspect of the high or lows, but how much of said frequency was present, period. Turning up the Body, it didn't seem like there was any point beyond which additional gain would just produce an increasingly saturated bottom end. You keep turning and the lows keep coming. Conversely, turning the Detail way down doesn't mean the highs are cleaned up; they're gone. It's like losing the highs on a bi/tri amped speaker system. Obviously, additional visits with this amp would benefit my understanding of the interplay between the EQ and Preamp volumes.
From what I read, this amp really lends itself to the approach of the guitar's volume pot as drive control. Recently, I had the volume pot in my guitar replaced and I'm now questioning it's suitability. I know that some high end roll-off is not unusual, but when I turned down to nine I was right into the mud. I wish I had brought a volume pedal.
Dynamic Range High/Low push switches (have I mentioned how I don't like push switches?). High Range was way too heavy for me, I didn't stay there very long. Significant, nay, huge difference between the two ranges. This is footswitchable, but I would not recommend that anyone interpret that as "it's pretty much a two channel amp".
Low Range with the Mid Boost engaged is awesome.
How did it sound? Like rock and roll. I don't have the experience to compare it to other Marshalls.
Would it work for me? Over all, I don't know. Playing some of my limited vocabulary, I found much of it was translatin' real well like. Without any adjustments, thick and rich single note lines balanced nicely with full 6 string triads that were crunchy yet clear. However, there were moments when that buzzy crunch felt really foreign to me. The sound seemed to implore, demand even "rock me, rock me hard", and all I could do was look at my shoes.
It's so different from my little 15watt cutie. It is a beast that I would like study, to determine if I could harness it's power for my own enjoyment.
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Re: Vintage Modern

Postby Christian LeBlanc » Wed May 16, 2012 7:57 am

Scott DeVarenne wrote:Master volume is post phase inverter/splitter. Very cool. Ask me why.

Is it so you can feed a preamped signal out into some effects/whatevers so you can induce power amp distortion on the amplifier and not worry about clipping/frying what you're feeding?
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Re: Vintage Modern

Postby Scott DeVarenne » Thu May 17, 2012 1:36 am

Why did I suggest anyone ask me why? Why? I have mostly theories and hunches. Very little which I would consider knowledge, that being information gained through first-hand experience. I have really only spent a significant amout of time with two amps (I'm not counting solid state amps, does that make me seem snooty?). I have read some stuff, but it's hard to know who to trust (I don't beleive that being full of s**t is necessarily a conscious decision).
Anyone who knows they know better than me can feel free to point out my mistakes.
Christian LeBlanc wrote:Is it so you can feed a preamped signal out into some effects/whatevers so you can induce power amp distortion on the amplifier and not worry about clipping/frying what you're feeding?

Let's take the long way home. Are clipping and distortion the same thing? Is it a difference in degree of the same process/activity? I think of clipping as dynamic compression and distortion as the creation/addition of new harmonic content. They are related, though, right? Somebody?
The answer to your question is mostly "no". If you are creating distortion by working over the power amp, then you are going to be clipping the signal that is hitting the power amp. If amp fx send> effects unit> amp fx return, then it's a straighforward, single signal chain. But, if amp fx send> effects unit> elsewhere (nothing plugged into amp fx return), then what's happening in the power amp will not have any bearing on the signal that's feeding the effects.
Now, post phase inverter master volume on the Vintage Modern...
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Re: Vintage Modern

Postby Christian LeBlanc » Thu May 17, 2012 7:18 am

Scott DeVarenne wrote:Why did I suggest anyone ask me why? Why? I have mostly theories and hunches. Very little which I would consider knowledge, that being information gained through first-hand experience. I have really only spent a significant amout of time with two amps (I'm not counting solid state amps, does that make me seem snooty?). I have read some stuff, but it's hard to know who to trust (I don't beleive that being full of s**t is necessarily a conscious decision).
Anyone who knows they know better than me can feel free to point out my mistakes.
Christian LeBlanc wrote:Is it so you can feed a preamped signal out into some effects/whatevers so you can induce power amp distortion on the amplifier and not worry about clipping/frying what you're feeding?

Let's take the long way home. Are clipping and distortion the same thing? Is it a difference in degree of the same process/activity? I think of clipping as dynamic compression and distortion as the creation/addition of new harmonic content. They are related, though, right? Somebody?
The answer to your question is mostly "no". If you are creating distortion by working over the power amp, then you are going to be clipping the signal that is hitting the power amp. If amp fx send> effects unit> amp fx return, then it's a straighforward, single signal chain. But, if amp fx send> effects unit> elsewhere (nothing plugged into amp fx return), then what's happening in the power amp will not have any bearing on the signal that's feeding the effects.
Now, post phase inverter master volume on the Vintage Modern...

This conversation can get convoluted fast, so I'll try to be brief :) - by clipping, I choose that to mean unwanted distortion, static-y sounding, especially if you're going for clean(ish) effects. And my concept was nothing plugged into amp fx return, just a separate signal fed into a mixer, to be blended with the power amp signal carried by a mic into the same mixer.
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Re: Vintage Modern

Postby Alain Benoit » Thu May 17, 2012 1:56 pm

If you guys can wait until next week when I have more time I will delve into clipping, distortion and other artifacts for yas.

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Re: Vintage Modern

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu May 17, 2012 2:11 pm

Alain Benoit wrote:If you guys can wait until next week when I have more time I will delve into clipping, distortion and other artifacts for yas.

A.


I've been waiting for a full-on distortion thread to develop. I'd like to register for this class. Let's start it over in "sounds good" and make a fresh thread for it.
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Re: Vintage Modern

Postby Christian LeBlanc » Thu May 17, 2012 2:58 pm

Mathieu Benoit wrote:
Alain Benoit wrote:If you guys can wait until next week when I have more time I will delve into clipping, distortion and other artifacts for yas.

A.


I've been waiting for a full-on distortion thread to develop. I'd like to register for this class. Let's start it over in "sounds good" and make a fresh thread for it.


Consider me registered as well - any chance we can talk about why note separation is better with some types of distortion than with others? And dispel some myths about what (if any) types of distortion indicate impending doom for your equipment?
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Re: Vintage Modern

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu May 17, 2012 3:28 pm

Alain knows a stunning amount about distortion. If there's one thing Alain knows better than tube amps, it's distortion.
"Volume automation takes time. You don't got that kinda time. You could be getting naked with somebody somewhere." -Slipperman

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Re: Vintage Modern

Postby Scott DeVarenne » Thu May 17, 2012 10:51 pm

Christian,
Phase inverter is after the FX return so, in the situation you last mentioned, neither the phase inverter nor anything after (master volume/power amp) will change how the FX sound.
My hunch is that the master volume being post phase inverter is going to result in a consistency of sound and response throughout a greater range of the master volume than would exist were the master volume pre phase inverter (and this would have some effect on any processing that has been introduced to the signal). By sound and response I mean fatness/thinness of tone, degree of satuaration, clipping.
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Re: Vintage Modern

Postby Christian LeBlanc » Fri May 18, 2012 8:12 am

Scott DeVarenne wrote:in the situation you last mentioned, neither the phase inverter nor anything after (master volume/power amp) will change how the FX sound.

I think one of us is viewing this as good, and one as bad ;)
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Re: Vintage Modern

Postby Alain Benoit » Fri May 18, 2012 11:52 am

To wrap up this topic, the Vintage Modern was returned today after Mike Setchell used it for the second time last night.
We both agree that it oozes the classic Marshall crunch. Single biggest issue that we both agree on is the mode selection.
Being footswitchable one must assume that is was meant as a channel switch of sorts, unfortunately the gain offset is WAY too large to be of any use during a performance.

Otherwise nice sounding amp at a good price.

A.
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Re: Vintage Modern

Postby Scott DeVarenne » Fri May 18, 2012 11:53 am

Phase inverter is after the FX return so, in the situation you last mentioned, neither the phase inverter nor anything after (master volume/power amp) will change how the FX sound.

I hope no one would view that as bad. Were it not so, then all the facts (as I understand them) are out the window. My meager grasp of signal flow and audio is built on such basics. I've yet to use a mixing console whose master level would affect the input gain or aux send of a channel. That would be a hilarious prank- mod a board so it would do that. Put your earplugs in and watch the soundguy have a meltdown.
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Re: Vintage Modern

Postby Christian LeBlanc » Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:39 am

Alain Benoit wrote:If you guys can wait until next week when I have more time I will delve into clipping, distortion and other artifacts for yas.

A.

More of a reminder, than a nag ;) I just recently got a Boss FZ-2 Hyper Fuzz that does weird ring modulation if you try playing some strings while another one is still ringing out; it also has a 25 db clean boost to help saturate a power amp section. This, along with some other distortions I have, including a Ram's Head Big Muff clone, means I'm totally gagging to play along at home :D
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