Video Questions

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Video Questions

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:44 am

I usually prefer clients send me quicktime video files to work with when I'm doing scoring. WMVs, AVIs and other formats are always hit or miss depending on the codecs involved.

Basically when you import a video into Cubase it uses an external video player and syncs itself with it. There are two that it has built in to it, and the third is actually quicktime which acts independantly of Cubase.

I guess I just don't know anything about digital video. I know there are a number of different formats (codecs?), both for video and audio. There's also different file types as well. I just want to understand why some files will work and why some files won't, even though it's the same file type.

This weekend though I had my first problem with a quicktime file. The MOV file wouldn't import and wouldn't even play in quicktime on its own. KMPlayer had no problem playing it though.

What am I missing? I want to be able to import any file under the sun, and I'm lead to believe by the Cubase manual that it's possible... However my reality tells me otherwise.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated!
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:00 pm

My feeble understanding of it is that any serious issues just importing a file are usually in how it was encoded on "their" end. I know this sounds like an "it's not my fault" mentality, but that is what I've read on more than one occasion.

I know that when you look at the properties of the video file it should give you specifics on the audio and video portions so you can see what is different from files you know work. That is usually a good path to head down for starters.
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Postby macrae11 » Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:04 pm

Basically video is just more complicated. Since computers haven't quite caught up with video yet, particularly HD video, we always only watch compressed video. In order to achieve this compression you need to have a way to encode, and decode it, aka a codec. If the person on the receiving end doesn't have the codec that the person on the sending end used to encode the file, then it will not be playable.

All of these codecs live within varying types of files. Could be the same codec used for .mov, .avi, and .mpeg. Or different codecs like H.264, DV, XDCAM etc all used with one file type like .mov.

H.264 is quickly becoming the new standard especially for HD video, but not everyone is caught up with that yet. If you're dealing with media savvy individuals, usually H.264 will be safe. If sending it to people who aren't as capable, an older codec, while not looking as good, should be safer. I'll often use DV codec, as it's fairly universal.

In regards to bringing files in that don't play, 99 times out of 100 it's because you don't have the proper codec. While Cubase probably can open any file under the sun, it still needs the appropriate codec to be installed in order for it to play. Usually the easiest thing to do is open the file up in a converter program like MPEG Streamclip, and then export it as something appropriate. You may also be able to do something like that with KMPlayer, but I'm not familiar with that program. I also don't know how they're able to read pretty much any file even when it seems the codec is not located on your system, but I've been able to open pretty much anything with either MPEG Streamclip, or VLPlayer.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:13 pm

Isn't there a way I can download all the codecs and install them all on my rig and avoid all of these problems? Maybe it's not that simple, but I want to be able to use whatever a client sends me without having any problems. 70% of my work this year is to video, so it's become pretty important. I really hope there's an elegant solution.

Thanks for the suggestions guys. :-)
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:36 pm

Drumwaiter wrote:Isn't there a way I can download all the codecs and install them all on my rig and avoid all of these problems?
So what you're looking for is a way to know anything that anyone might ever throw at you? ;-)
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:37 pm

Andrew... Am I right in saying that looking at the file properties can help sort out the differences in compression used?
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Postby macrae11 » Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:53 pm

Unfortunately not. There are new codecs being developed all the time, across various formats. Someone somewhere will always try to use the newest latest greatest codec thinking that they're doing themselves a favour, when in fact they're making everybody's life more difficult.

I think the easiest thing is to have your requirements listed clearly up front. Say that you only accept quicktime movies in H.264 format no exceptions. Then when someone asks for an exception, as long as it's not to esoteric you can acquiesce and seem like a hero. Unfortunately there is no simple solution, and there probably won't be for some time.

Download MPEG Streamclip as well. It's a great format converter for these types of issues.
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Postby macrae11 » Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:56 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:Andrew... Am I right in saying that looking at the file properties can help sort out the differences in compression used?


It certainly can help, but if you don't have the codec, you've still got to go find it. Also I've found that some formats won't show the compression, or won't show it properly if you don't have the codec.
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:01 pm

Cool. Good to know.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with stating up front what you want in a file type to work with. Especially if, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's just a reference vid to work with while you do the audio work.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:14 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:Cool. Good to know.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with stating up front what you want in a file type to work with. Especially if, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's just a reference vid to work with while you do the audio work.


I used to always specify quicktime files, I guess I just never knew I needed to speficy codecs for .mov files also. I guess it makes sense.

Next question: How do I know which codecs I have?
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:53 pm

Dug up some info on Steinberg's knowledge base:

Steinberg wrote:Are there any limitations regarding video playback in Nuendo?

Theoretically, all files that are supported by the operating system and/or Quicktime are compatible. On the Mac platform, there is only Quicktime available, on PC Windows both the DirectShow (Cubase and Nuendo) and DirectX (Nuendo only) players are available. Quicktime needs to be installed manually here. However, Nuendo 3.2.1 and Cubase 4.0.3 (or older) cannot benefit from the latest Quicktime 7.x release. HD material (H.264, .mp4 and some DV-codecs) is supported with Nuendo 4 and Cubase 4.1 (or higher) and at the same time this will also be a requirement for both applications when working with QT movies.

Possible setups for working with video in Nuendo

Native

The most common solution for working with a video in Nuendo is to send the video stream to a dedicated output of current graphic cards from Matrox, AMD (ATI) or nVidia. Here, the video is send to the second or third/fourth (on certain Matrox cards) via DirectShow (PC Windows). Quicktime Pro offers this feature as well.
Recommended codecs for this solution are: Photo JPEG for Quicktime and Cinepak .avi for PC Windows.
Once Quicktime is available on the system, almost every video file can be used (starting with Nuendo 4/Cubase 4.1 this applies to H.264 and .mp4 in conjunction with QT 7.x as well).
No matter which player is used (DirectShow, DirectX or Quicktime), keep in mind that the relevant codecs have to be installed on the system as well! Some codecs may work better than others and some might even be more efficient than others, so it is definitely worth trying some combinations first of all to find the perfect solution. One solution could be to convert a .mov to an .avi using the Intel Indeo codec and to use that video file instead but this is just one example out of many. Just always remember: the lower the compression, the less resources have to be reserved to decode the video file. On the other hand, a low compression rate always goes along with larger files and thus creating a higher workload for the involved hard drives.



I'm gonna go get my Greek-to-English dictionary and get back to you.
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Postby macrae11 » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:17 pm

What's your main question from all that?
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:20 pm

Sending a video stream to a dedicated output.

EDIT: Form of a question...

What is sending a video stream to a dedicated output?
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Postby macrae11 » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:39 pm

Well you know how you have two monitors playing back from your video card right? So you could set your video file to completely take over one of those outputs and use it exclusively and nothing else would be displayed on that monitor.

I don't know if you've ever seen me set it up, but I have dual monitors, and then I have another video DA being fed via Firewire, which I route my video from PT to. So on the third monitor I only get the video file playing, same as if I had plugged a DVD player or something into it.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:45 pm

macrae11 wrote:Well you know how you have two monitors playing back from your video card right? So you could set your video file to completely take over one of those outputs and use it exclusively and nothing else would be displayed on that monitor.

I don't know if you've ever seen me set it up, but I have dual monitors, and then I have another video DA being fed via Firewire, which I route my video from PT to. So on the third monitor I only get the video file playing, same as if I had plugged a DVD player or something into it.

So basically what I was going to do with my "3rd monitor"? Me likey.

Second question... Can I split that signal so that it goes to, say, a monitor in the live room?
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Postby macrae11 » Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:32 pm

Drumwaiter wrote:
Second question... Can I split that signal so that it goes to, say, a monitor in the live room?


Don't see why not, I do it all the time. One for me and one for the talent. I usually split it analog, due to a lack of digital video outs, but I'm sure you could set it up in display preferences if you have the video cards to handle it.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:36 pm

macrae11 wrote:
Drumwaiter wrote:
Second question... Can I split that signal so that it goes to, say, a monitor in the live room?


Don't see why not, I do it all the time. One for me and one for the talent. I usually split it analog, due to a lack of digital video outs, but I'm sure you could set it up in display preferences if you have the video cards to handle it.

This made me a bit horny.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:08 pm

macrae11 wrote:I think the easiest thing is to have your requirements listed clearly up front. Say that you only accept quicktime movies in H.264 format no exceptions. Then when someone asks for an exception, as long as it's not to esoteric you can acquiesce and seem like a hero. Unfortunately there is no simple solution, and there probably won't be for some time.


So is H.264 is the basic standard that any quicktime equipped machine should be able to run?
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Postby macrae11 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:11 pm

H.264 is becoming as close to a standard as is possible in these types of scenarios. Particularly because it handles HD so well, it's used for a lot of blu-ra authoring. Any modern, or well updated quicktime machine should be able to handle it.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:20 pm

macrae11 wrote:H.264 is becoming as close to a standard as is possible in these types of scenarios. Particularly because it handles HD so well, it's used for a lot of blu-ra authoring. Any modern, or well updated quicktime machine should be able to handle it.


So my computer with Quicktime on it should be able to recognize that format no problem? I just had a client send me that, I'll check to see if it does work, but I bet it will.
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Postby macrae11 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:09 pm

It should. If not, just try downloading the latest version of quicktime.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:12 pm

macrae11 wrote:It should. If not, just try downloading the latest version of quicktime.


Awesome. I'll let you know my findings when I get to the studio tonight.
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