Time Signatures

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Time Signatures

Postby Cryptowen » Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:26 pm

This is a thread in which to talk about time signatures.

I personally love the idea of using multiple signatures. It's like each one is a different little musical race, & while the individual songs that fall under it may vary greatly, they tend to share a unique set of core characteristics. Usually, I try to work in a weird time while making sure it doesn't become jittery Venetian Snares style madness (nothing wrong with that, but these days it seems like 75% of electronic musicians are doing that, dubstep, or Acid revival). So far I've completed songs in-

3/4, 6/4, 9/4 - I tend to use all three of these quite a bit (especially 6/4). I find they're good for mixing with 4/4 because the two sync up so much.

4/4 - obviously

5/4 - one of the first "uncommon" signatures I tried. In a lot of cases I treat it sort of like 4/4, with one beat receiving special emphasis or silence (usually the last one). Haven't used it so much lately, but this track from early 2009 does.

7/4 - another one I've been using a lot lately. Sometimes I treat it like two bars of 4/4 missing a beat, other times I just treat it like 7/4 (if that makes sense). Example

9.5/4 - just got into this one the last month or so. Probably the weirdest signature I've used so far. Someone on another forum argued that it should really be referred to as 19/4, but I thought this fit better as the extra bit of space came after every ninth beat. I don't think I've put any examples of this online yet...

11/4 - actually I've only done one song like this, & I don't really remember doing it. It was a late night experiment I found one day while cleaning up my scrap folders.

13/8 - So far I've mostly just used this one on beatless ambient tracks, which I find in general are easier to apply weird sigs to. Example

So that's me and time signatures. What about you guys? Do you mostly stick to 4/4, or do you mix it up a bit? I'm also curious if different signatures change the way an instrument player plays a song.
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Postby Greg H. » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:37 pm

I haven't experimented nearly as much as you have, but I would really enjoy hearing the song in 19/4. I've never heard of someone doing that.

I've done some songs in 5/4 before, which are always fun. A favorite of mine is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k_Pe_iNYO4

Also a lot of jazz has some interesting time sigs. This track from Ben Folds is pretty straightforward but I just enjoy it so I'll post it anyways http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrQ1caTOGvg
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Postby macrae11 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:17 pm

I think it would probably actually make more sense as 19/8, but that's just me. I don't do much writing anymore, but I love weird time signatures.

I really like 7/8, 11/4, and 9/8. 5/4 is cool too, especially if you can alternate the groove between 3+2 and 4+1. I also really enjoy juxtaposing time signatures, like playing 4/4 drum grooves over 6/8 time.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:39 pm

macrae11 wrote:I think it would probably actually make more sense as 19/8, but that's just me.


Haha...yup. ;-)
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:50 pm

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Re: Time Signatures

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:58 pm

Cryptowen wrote:5/4 - one of the first "uncommon" signatures I tried. In a lot of cases I treat it sort of like 4/4, with one beat receiving special emphasis or silence (usually the last one). Haven't used it so much lately, but this track from early 2009 does.

I like this one a lot.

Cryptowen wrote:7/4 - another one I've been using a lot lately. Sometimes I treat it like two bars of 4/4 missing a beat, other times I just treat it like 7/4 (if that makes sense). Example

This one too.

Cryptowen wrote:9.5/4 - just got into this one the last month or so. Probably the weirdest signature I've used so far. Someone on another forum argued that it should really be referred to as 19/4, but I thought this fit better as the extra bit of space came after every ninth beat. I don't think I've put any examples of this online yet...

Remember this isn't math class and these aren't fractions... :-P

Cryptowen wrote:11/4 - actually I've only done one song like this, & I don't really remember doing it. It was a late night experiment I found one day while cleaning up my scrap folders.

You need to be doing film scores.

Cryptowen wrote:13/8 - So far I've mostly just used this one on beatless ambient tracks, which I find in general are easier to apply weird sigs to. Example

Again, you need to be doing film scores.

Cryptowen wrote:So that's me and time signatures. What about you guys? Do you mostly stick to 4/4, or do you mix it up a bit? I'm also curious if different signatures change the way an instrument player plays a song.


There are deeper rabbit holes to go into as well if you are so inclined. Employing metric modulation can add yet another dimension to simply picking an odd time signature and leaving it at that. It allows the composer to find interesting ways to keep the listener guessing. Experiment with making it tactful using other rhythmic counterpoints as well. My favorite use of any odd rhythms are the ones executed with subtlety and taste.

Even with standard odd times, some of my favorite are the ones that groove as nothing is odd at all:

Here's an beautiful example of 7/8 with the bell of the ride playing straight quarters with no regard to the bars.
St. Augustine in Hell

Same album, same concept but now in 5/4. Vinnie's ability to make it groove like 4/4 is pretty slick.
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Last edited by Mathieu Benoit on Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:59 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqNI47CaYpc


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Postby Cryptowen » Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:21 pm

Greg H. wrote:I would really enjoy hearing the song in 19/4. I've never heard of someone doing that.


I've actually done two like that now. The first was just sort of a short little test (sounds a bit like Zelda dungeon music). The second (which I just started yesterday) actually sounds more like a complete song, so I might put it on a release someday.

As mentioned, Venetian Snares loves rocking the weird signature angle. Here is one that alternates between 13/4 & 19/4.

This track from Ben Folds is pretty straightforward but I just enjoy it so I'll post it anyways http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrQ1caTOGvg


Every recording of Ben Folds I've heard so far seems to consist of him coming up with a song on the spot. I'm starting to think that's his thing.

I think it would probably actually make more sense as 19/8


Probably, but when I say 9.5/4 it makes me sound smarter to non-musicians.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqNI47CaYpc


Really liked the percussion at the start of that. I think I'm going to eschew drum machines & samplers for mostly live percussion on my next project (actually I'm building a midi-controlled robot for this, but that's another thread).

I like this one a lot


Thanks :-)

metric modulation


I didn't know what the term was for that, but I use it a lot to. Slowing the tempo down (usually by 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, etc) on a specific beat can really help a transition in some cases. Speeding up works well for intentionally killing a groove (there are times for that!).

Vinnie's ability to make it groove like 4/4 is pretty slick.


Yeah, that's the trick. Making the time signature feel like a fitting component of a song, instead of "WOW LOOK AT ME BEING UNCONVENTIONAL". Lots of techno guys seem to run into that one.
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Postby macrae11 » Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:26 am

Malcolm Boyce wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqNI47CaYpc


That's actually the first album that came to my mind when this discussion came up. :-D
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Postby macrae11 » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:37 am

As a side bar to this thread, how would our rhythm gurus here measure out the intro to Changes. My brain wants to feel it as 3 bars of 4/8 then a bar of 2/8, with every other bar swung. I know this doesn't really make sense though, as it also requires an 80BPM tempo change every other bar, to make it fit.

I can think of a few other ways to subdivide this, that are a bit smoother, but they don't fit the groove in my brain. How would you chart it out?
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:46 pm

macrae11 wrote:As a side bar to this thread, how would our rhythm gurus here measure out the intro to Changes. My brain wants to feel it as 3 bars of 4/8 then a bar of 2/8, with every other bar swung. I know this doesn't really make sense though, as it also requires an 80BPM tempo change every other bar, to make it fit.

I can think of a few other ways to subdivide this, that are a bit smoother, but they don't fit the groove in my brain. How would you chart it out?
I always heard it as 7/8 10/8... repeat.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:53 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:
macrae11 wrote:As a side bar to this thread, how would our rhythm gurus here measure out the intro to Changes. My brain wants to feel it as 3 bars of 4/8 then a bar of 2/8, with every other bar swung. I know this doesn't really make sense though, as it also requires an 80BPM tempo change every other bar, to make it fit.

I can think of a few other ways to subdivide this, that are a bit smoother, but they don't fit the groove in my brain. How would you chart it out?
I always heard it as 7/8 10/8... repeat.

I'd have to sit down with it for a second to tell ya, but I'd trust Malcolm's judgment on it. He can count to 10 and stuff. I have no youtube at work.
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:58 pm

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It just fills Forum pages..." --compasspnt

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Postby macrae11 » Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:35 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:I always heard it as 7/8 10/8... repeat.


Yeah I get that, and it does make the downbeats line up nicely, so I totally buy that that's the "correct" way of counting it. The dotted 16th notes give my brain a twist when counting that way though. This is why I'm not Chris Squire. Or at least one more reason why I'm not.
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Postby gamblor » Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:39 pm

song #1 .

two measures of 5/8 followed by 2 of 6/8

http://virgoa.org/audio.php

we go back to something similar at the end. see if you can pick out the pattern!! you'll be pleasantly surprised.
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Postby Cryptowen » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:55 am

The compound time signature thread going on now inspired me to try two new ones yesterday - 13/4 & 21/4. I found 13/4 surprisingly easy to work with, & the beat it produced didn't really sound "abstract" (if you know what I mean). 21/4 was a bit trickier, & the song ended up being a bunch of layered 7/4, 3/4, & start/stop 4/4.

I give 13/4 time my seal of endorsement.
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