De-Esser Live... I'm addicted.

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De-Esser Live... I'm addicted.

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sat Sep 25, 2010 12:13 am

So although it's had it for some time, I just gave the "De-Esser" in the PM5D a shot some months back for the traditional use, trying to get some crazy harsh sibilance under control. I was so impressed with it, I started to try it on other things as more of a band pass compressor.

I must say, it's been outstanding, and it's incredibly addictive. Times where I would dull up a source to keep annoying peakiness under control. Just slap the De-Esser on, find the freq(s), adjust the threshold to taste... Presto!

I just usually so skeptical of stuff like this, I'm surprised when it ends up being useful.

The multi band dynamics and compressor on the 5D lacks the proper functionality because of a lame "gain make up" in conjunction with the threshold. The De-Esser fortunately escaped this foolishness.
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Postby macrae11 » Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:50 am

De-Essers can certainly be life savers. I just got some mixes back from Nashville and you would be stunned at the amount of compression, and de-essing that was done to the tracks. Vocals sound absolutely smashing though.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Sat Sep 25, 2010 4:05 pm

macrae11 wrote: I just got some mixes back from Nashville and you would be stunned at the amount of compression, and de-essing that was done to the tracks. Vocals sound absolutely smashing though.

If they're all done I can't wait to hear them. I'm super excited to listen to that album.

On topic though, I don't have a great de-esser with Cubase. I can't tweak the way I want, and I don't like using things unless I know what it's trying to do. If I can't pick my own frequency then I can't be sure I'm getting the best mileage out of that thing.

Image

So I usually try to just notch it out first, if the unwanted sibilance isn't too severe. If that doesn't do the trick I'll just sidechain a compressor into a parametric EQ and adjust to taste. I never used sidechain until recently but I found it useful w

If I had a good quality de-esser though, I'd probably do exactly what you're doing with it. I mean, why not?
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sat Sep 25, 2010 4:46 pm

I've been using it less to get rid of "Essessss" and more to control "harshness" in the 2-6K range. Vocals, and direct stringed instruments so far. I'm sure I'll try it on more.

I just wish it would go lower than 1KHz... :cry:
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Sat Sep 25, 2010 4:51 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:I've been using it less to get rid of "Essessss" and more to control "harshness" in the 2-6K range. Vocals, and direct stringed instruments so far. I'm sure I'll try it on more.

I just wish it would go lower than 1KHz... :cry:


If I had one that I could sweep I'd be right there with ya. :-)
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Postby macrae11 » Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:08 pm

Drumwaiter wrote:
macrae11 wrote: I just got some mixes back from Nashville and you would be stunned at the amount of compression, and de-essing that was done to the tracks. Vocals sound absolutely smashing though.

If they're all done I can't wait to hear them. I'm super excited to listen to that album.


Tracks are 99% ready to go. I'll bring you up a premaster tomorrow.
Drumwaiter wrote:

Image

So I usually try to just notch it out first, if the unwanted sibilance isn't too severe. If that doesn't do the trick I'll just sidechain a compressor into a parametric EQ and adjust to taste. I never used sidechain until recently but I found it useful w

If I had a good quality de-esser though, I'd probably do exactly what you're doing with it. I mean, why not?


This is actually one of the best most flexible ways to go. I just don't often do it because it takes a few clicks extra to set up, and I've got some decent de-essers. Doesn't Cubase have a decent multiband compressor? They can usually be set up to effectively work as a de-esser.
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:21 pm

macrae11 wrote:... a decent multiband compressor? They can usually be set up to effectively work as a de-esser.
Agreed. That's what I use for all the aforementioned uses if I have a good one.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:30 am

macrae11 wrote:Tracks are 99% ready to go. I'll bring you up a premaster tomorrow.



macrae11 wrote:Doesn't Cubase have a decent multiband compressor? They can usually be set up to effectively work as a de-esser.

That's an excellent point, I haven't used the multiband compressor in ages. It's probably an easier way to go for sure.

Actually the de-esser in Cubase works well enough in most applications for vocals. However I can't use it the way Malcolm is describing because the frequency and threshold are more or less pre-set. The reason I don't use it is because it does me no good at this stage to do anything automatic. If I can't effectively suss out a particular frequency and set up my compressor to get the best results, then I need to seriously consider another hobby. Getting the attack and release times right is the tricky part for me., but I'm working on it. Again the multiband compressor would likely do just as well, you guys are right.

On the topic of sidechaining though, I'm starting to get into sidechaning the bass gtr off the kick drum. Again getting the attack and release times just right is the trick there.

So much to learn, so little time... That's why I have you guys. I'm not sure what tuition is at Atlantica but I probably can't afford it, so thanks for the 3 years of free education. I really appreciate it, Although I suppose it wasn't free, I've worked my butt off for it...
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Postby Alain Benoit » Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:13 pm

Matt, there are two channels of excellent de-essing in the first rack on you're right.

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Postby macrae11 » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:52 pm

Well by the frig. :-P
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:41 pm

Alain Benoit wrote:Matt, there are two channels of excellent de-essing in the first rack on you're right.

A.


Right, the 402! I forgot all about that...

Does this mean you are back to re-open the doors on the gear forum?
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Postby Alain Benoit » Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:19 pm

Not likely this year.

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Re: De-Esser Live... I'm addicted.

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:53 pm

So I've decided that for actual "De-essing" on the PM5D, I'm really loving using a heavily EQd Key In on a compressor much more than the actual DeEsser effect. Fast attack and release, and a high ratio-hard knee kind of setting. Literally HPF up to about 5K, and boost 8-10K big time. You have to be really careful to avoid "S"s turning into "F"s if you get too carried away, but I'm really likin' how fast this stuff reacts, and the lack of distortion of the top end is beautiful.

The gate on the 5D allows for a filtered key in, but the comp doesn't... Stupid oversight IMO.
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Re: De-Esser Live... I'm addicted.

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:06 pm

Andrew. Have you "De-essed" like that with a compressor and EQd key in? I'm absolutely loving it instead of multiband or any "De-esser" I've ever tried.
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Re: De-Esser Live... I'm addicted.

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:16 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:Andrew. Have you "De-essed" like that with a compressor and EQd key in? I'm absolutely loving it instead of multiband or any "De-esser" I've ever tried.


I'm not Andrew, but I'm finding in the studio more and more, than "de-essing" is a PITA that is best handled at the source. Maybe there is such a thing as a "magic bullet" de-esser (or equivalent), but I haven't found it yet.
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Re: De-Esser Live... I'm addicted.

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:23 pm

Mathieu Benoit wrote:
Malcolm Boyce wrote:Andrew. Have you "De-essed" like that with a compressor and EQd key in? I'm absolutely loving it instead of multiband or any "De-esser" I've ever tried.


I'm not Andrew, but I'm finding in the studio more and more, than "de-essing" is a PITA that is best handled at the source. Maybe there is such a thing as a "magic bullet" de-esser (or equivalent), but I haven't found it yet.
The problem can be the person's voice/mouth and you have no choice but to attack it with processing. I have had people that I couldn't believe they actually sound that way just speaking/singing in front of me. Sometimes as a result of voice training unfortunately.

"Esses" become a bigger problem when aggressively compressing a vocal causing excessive sibilance as an artifact of the processing.
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Re: De-Esser Live... I'm addicted.

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:38 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:The problem can be the person's voice/mouth and you have no choice but to attack it with processing. I have had people that I couldn't believe they actually sound that way just speaking/singing in front of me. Sometimes as a result of voice training unfortunately.


You're right, voice training can make it worse in some cases but I find that the same training can make it easy to work around the sibilance issues. If it's really bad and the singer is fairly trained, I'll work on him/her to try different ways to form "s" sounds so that we can avoid much of the harshness right at the source. If it takes 4-5 takes of a line to get it right, it's way less time consuming that screwing around with it later. Sometimes you have no choice because the source can't be improved through normal means, but I've learned the hard way that I should try to fix that at the source just like with everything else. The further downstream you are, the more the problem gets harder to fix.

Now for live... absolutely...anything goes because you can't go back and get her to sing it right later.
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Re: De-Esser Live... I'm addicted.

Postby macrae11 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:58 pm

I'm mostly with Matt on this one. I usually try to not have to deal with them at all. Even with a sibilant singer, turning the right mic off axis by even 45º or more can really help. Don't try with a 421 obviously :-P . If I'm going for a pop style vocal most of the time I'll have to de-ess because there's going to be some significant compression going on in the vocals. Putting it before the compressor helps a lot and post a bit of helper EQ can make a big difference as well.

I don't use one very often for other sources, but once in a while I'll get creative with one. For example right now I've got a vocal chain that starts with a serious high shelf. +10dB starting at about 2k and rising all the way up. Then I've got it going into a fairly heavy de-esser starting around 5k with a really low threshold around -40, but with a range of only about -10. So basically everything that's even remotely bright gets hammered by the de-esser, but not too extreme. Then I went into a tape saturation plugin that's running about 75% with a bright "bias" setting which runs into a compressor that's running medium/heavy about 6-10 dB of GR. Add a touch of bright plate and a medium hall and you get a really exciting compressed top end that stays very in control, with the body of the sound still being quite natural. I did this because the vocals were a little dull and lackluster tonally, so this helped excite things. There weren't any significant sibilance issues either before or after processing.
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Re: De-Esser Live... I'm addicted.

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:10 pm

So, instead of a band pass or multi band compressor to de-esssssss, I'm talking about something that I first heard Clearmountain talk about years ago which is a compressor with an EQd key in to trigger only on the bad stuff. It really is turning out to be something way more satisfying than something band pass. I highly recommend trying it if you haven't.
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Re: De-Esser Live... I'm addicted.

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:18 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:So, instead of a band pass or multi band compressor to de-esssssss, I'm talking about something that I first heard Clearmountain talk about years ago which is a compressor with an EQd key in to trigger only on the bad stuff. It really is turning out to be something way more satisfying than something band pass. I highly recommend trying it if you haven't.


That's traditionally how I have always "de-essed". The Massey plugin de-esser is pretty good though. I've only got the demo version though so I don't use it much yet since the demo version is not recall-able.
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Re: De-Esser Live... I'm addicted.

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:46 pm

When I've had to, which isn't super often, I've usually defaulted to band pass or multiband compression, live and recorded.

The "de-ess" effect in the 5D is still the bomb for removing some harshness in the upper mids, but for classic essssssss stuff, I'm really preferring the full range compressor with a processed key in.

I've been messing around with some recorded vocals, and am finding the same thing is true which is a full range comp is far more pleasing than the band pass.
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Re: De-Esser Live... I'm addicted.

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:00 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:I've been messing around with some recorded vocals, and am finding the same thing is true which is a full range comp is far more pleasing than the band pass.


You want a vocal track to mess with? I have an extreme case of female vocal sibilance if you want to show me how you'd process it. Maybe you can come in Friday evening to go over some de-esser techniques? :-)
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Re: De-Esser Live... I'm addicted.

Postby macrae11 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:46 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:So, instead of a band pass or multi band compressor to de-esssssss, I'm talking about something that I first heard Clearmountain talk about years ago which is a compressor with an EQd key in to trigger only on the bad stuff. It really is turning out to be something way more satisfying than something band pass. I highly recommend trying it if you haven't.


The main de-esser I use is the Waves Rdesser which can either full band compress based on whatever frequency you want, or do the regular hi band only. I experiment with both options to see which I like best. The 402 also has this function.
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Re: De-Esser Live... I'm addicted.

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:08 pm

macrae11 wrote: Don't try with a 421 obviously :-P .


Why on earth would it be on a vocal?
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Re: De-Esser Live... I'm addicted.

Postby macrae11 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:47 pm

It's actually a pretty good vocal mic.
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