DAWs and Compound Time

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DAWs and Compound Time

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:01 pm

For those of you who may not know, when dealing with compound time signatures (6/8, 9/8, 12/8) the beat isn't a quarter note, it's a dotted quarter note. It may not mean anything to some of you, and it's not a big deal usually except when understanding how tempos work in relation to the beat.

The problem I'm having is that Cubase has never gotten that right. No matter the time signature being used it always counts the "beat" as a quarter notes. So whenever I set the tempo for something in 6/8 it's not a real representation of what the actual BPM should be. I can work around it, with simple grade 3 math, but that's not the point. It makes me me wonder which of the other platforms have it right or not. It could make working on a single project across various platforms annoying.

How do other DAWs deal with this? I find this to be a pretty odd oversight on Steinberg's part especially if other platforms got it right.
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Postby macrae11 » Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:26 pm

Pro Tools handles this very well and is very flexible in this regard. However I didn't always know this, as it's not immediately apparent, because it's done in a bit of an odd place. Basically you can set the time signature to whatever you want, but then you have to adjust the click in another area in the tempo dialog. Took me a while to figure that one out.

Maybe Cubase is a similar scenario, where the setting isn't changed in an immediately obvious place? Anything in the manual?
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:40 am

macrae11 wrote:Pro Tools handles this very well and is very flexible in this regard. However I didn't always know this, as it's not immediately apparent, because it's done in a bit of an odd place. Basically you can set the time signature to whatever you want, but then you have to adjust the click in another area in the tempo dialog. Took me a while to figure that one out.
Maybe Cubase is a similar scenario, where the setting isn't changed in an immediately obvious place? Anything in the manual?

In Cubase I can adjust what they call the "count base" in the metronome settings. But it just changes how the metronome reacts to the internal grid. I can't seem to find anything that adjusts how the grid itself is set up. Meaning I can get the metronome to click at whatever intervals I want, but it doesn't change how the grid views the "beat" in compound signatures.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:58 am

Here's a thread from Gearslutz concerning how Pro Tools handles it:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/19358-protools-meter-time-signature-question.html

It's more entertaining than educational, although I did end up getting an answer to the way Pro Tools deals with it. They really like to yell over there though...
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Postby macrae11 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:02 am

Yeah with Pro Tools you can set the grid anywhere from a bar to a 64th note, with the option to have a dotted, or triplet at any level.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:24 am

macrae11 wrote:Yeah with Pro Tools you can set the grid anywhere from a bar to a 64th note, with the option to have a dotted, or triplet at any level.

I can set the resolution of the visual grid on the project screen to whatever I want in Cubase, but it's not the same thing as adjusting the resolution for the actual tempo.

I'm still looking into it with Cubase. The manual is unclear, and I haven't been able to check as I haven't been at the studio since Saturday. I'll do more digging online.

How does Sonar deal with this Malcolm?
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Postby macrae11 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 12:13 pm

Ah I see. In PT the tempo and grid are linked and can't really be separated. Not sure why you'd want to.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Tue Oct 26, 2010 12:20 pm

macrae11 wrote:Not sure why you'd want to.

Yeah, no kidding eh?

I'm gonna spend some time experimenting tonight and see how it reacts. I just wanted to bring up an awareness of the issue more so than to actually make a complaint. I was just curious about the mechanics of how DAWs typically treat this type of scenario.
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Postby macrae11 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 12:59 pm

I'll see if I can check how Logic does it sometime.
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Postby Christian LeBlanc » Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:22 pm

Drumwaiter wrote:I'll do more digging online.
I did a quick search online, and found a thread that came to the same conclusion: you can't get the tempo to reflect the actual bpm, only the quarter notes.

If that makes sense, I could be remembering wrong.

...I just wanted in on this.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:12 pm

Christian LeBlanc wrote:
Drumwaiter wrote:I'll do more digging online.
I did a quick search online, and found a thread that came to the same conclusion: you can't get the tempo to reflect the actual bpm, only the quarter notes.

If that makes sense, I could be remembering wrong.

...I just wanted in on this.


When I did a quick search I came across the same information, when I dug in further some people swear it's possible. The internet is not clear on this issue yet. I need to check this out for myself now. Glad you could join the discussion though.
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Postby Cryptowen » Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:12 pm

Jeskola Buzz has the ability to set the number of beats & tics independently to whatever one desires (56/3, for example), & allows for one to have different instruments use different time signatures at the same time. Not sure if that covers what you need, though.
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Postby macrae11 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:03 pm

Cryptowen wrote:Jeskola Buzz has the ability to set the number of beats & tics independently to whatever one desires (56/3, for example), & allows for one to have different instruments use different time signatures at the same time. Not sure if that covers what you need, though.


That sounds interesting, although I am curious as to what the practical application is for having such bizarre time signatures, other than just for experimenting and cool factor.

Having multiple time signatures for different instruments is very neat though. Can't say I've ever needed to, but I can think of a couple of ways to work around that in PT. Nice to have it integrated though. Any details on Jeskola Buzz? I like messing around with other DAW's even just to see what's out there.
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Postby macrae11 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:03 pm

Without any real experimenting, Logic appears to work as expected.
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Postby Cryptowen » Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:38 pm

macrae11 wrote:That sounds interesting, although I am curious as to what the practical application is for having such bizarre time signatures, other than just for experimenting and cool factor.

Having multiple time signatures for different instruments is very neat though. Can't say I've ever needed to, but I can think of a couple of ways to work around that in PT. Nice to have it integrated though. Any details on Jeskola Buzz? I like messing around with other DAW's even just to see what's out there.


It's good for me because lately I find myself drawn to more unusual signatures, as I find the really weird ones lend themselves to melodic or rhythmic phrasing (the trick is keeping one relatively steady while the other drifts around).

As for Buzz - it's an open source module-based DAW which first appeared in the late 90s & sat dormant for years (not counting add-ons made by independent developers). In 2008 the original creator returned with a new version & has been updating frequently since then (the weird time signature stuff being among the additions to the new version). I've always been a fan of it because of the ultra-stripped down design (some people have said using it feels like making music with Excel). You can download it at http://www.buzzmachines.com/
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:53 pm

The issue seems to be not with dealing with time signatures, but with how the DAWs perceive "tempo".

Sonar seems to be limited the same as Matt's description of Cubase with the "Tempo" being based on the quarter note, regardless of time change.

I agree, up 'til now, it didn't bug me, but I know where you're coming from Matt. Simple solution would be a parameter added to what's called the "meter" page in Sonar, which I'm sure has a companion in all the platforms. When you change the tempo, what the "beat" is based on for the tempo setting. Seems easy enough.

I'm curious. I want to do more reading on this now.
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:17 am

So Matt... It appears to be a MIDI based issue, not anything to do with your DAW. The clock timing of our good ol' format is based on "Ticks Per Quarter Note"... Ringing any bells? As soon as I saw it I knew what was going on.

Essentially MIDI synchronizes itself using these clock pulses which it derives it's tempo information from. No one has "solved" this issue because it has the almost 30 year old link to the MIDI format... which strange and fortunately enough isn't going anywhere. It would seem, until we dump the MIDI format, we are stuck with workarounds.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:31 am

Malcolm Boyce wrote:So Matt... It appears to be a MIDI based issue, not anything to do with your DAW. The clock timing of our good ol' format is based on "Ticks Per Quarter Note"... Ringing any bells? As soon as I saw it I knew what was going on.

I knew that MIDI is based on pulses per quarter note but I guess I don't follow how it locks us to use quarter notes since most MIDI devices have been capable of 900+ PPQ for years now. I guess I'd want to know why it can't be done. I believe you and in theory it makes sense, but I don't understand the math and the programming enough to understand why exactly.
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:34 am

Drumwaiter wrote:I knew that MIDI is based on pulses per quarter note but I guess I don't follow how it locks us to use quarter notes since most MIDI devices have been capable of 900+ PPQ for years now. I guess I'd want to know why it can't be done. I believe you and in theory it makes sense, but I don't understand the math and the programming enough to understand why exactly.
Think of it as wanting to track the verses of a song at 48K and the chorus at 44.1K.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:42 am

Malcolm Boyce wrote:
Drumwaiter wrote:I knew that MIDI is based on pulses per quarter note but I guess I don't follow how it locks us to use quarter notes since most MIDI devices have been capable of 900+ PPQ for years now. I guess I'd want to know why it can't be done. I believe you and in theory it makes sense, but I don't understand the math and the programming enough to understand why exactly.
Think of it as wanting to track the verses of a song at 48K and the chorus at 44.1K.


That's a good analogy. But I'd still like to understand the mechanics. I understand what sample rate is and why you can't mix and match them, I don't understand the mechanics of MIDI enough to understand why it's like like mixing sample rates. Do you have any references you can point me to in order to understand why?

At any rate. This is a good discussion. I may bring it up in The Womb as well, there are many members on there that are pretty heavy into the the mechanics of MIDI, heck some of them may have even invented it.
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:55 am

The resolution of a sequencer, measured in "ticks per quarter note" is linked directly to the parameter of tempo. Everything timing wise is also linked to the "ticks" not only note on messages, but aftertouch, bend, etc. When a MIDI sequencer is counting beats, it is counting "ticks". You can't adjust how it relates to tempo and resolution without messing with the timing of everything else recorded into the sequence.

It is, after all, a very old format that hasn't changed much since it's earliest days.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:03 pm

Internet wrote:Time signature is expressed as 4 numbers. nn and dd represent the "numerator" and "denominator" of the signature as notated on sheet music. The denominator is a negative power of 2: 2 = quarter note, 3 = eighth, etc. The cc expresses the number of MIDI clocks in a metronome click. The bb parameter expresses the number of notated 32nd notes in a MIDI quarter note (24 MIDI clocks). This event allows a program to relate what MIDI thinks of as a quarter, to something entirely different. For example, 6/8 time with a metronome click every 3 eighth notes and 24 clocks per quarter note would be the following event: FF 58 04 06 03 18 08


Seems to be some code there that would allow for dotted quarter note to replace what the program thinks of as a quarter note.

Internet also wrote: Time signature of the form:
nn/2^dd
eg: 6/8 would be specified using nn=6, dd=3
The parameter cc is the number of MIDI Clocks per metronome tick.

Normally, there are 24 MIDI Clocks per quarter note. However, some software allows this to be set by the user. The parameter bb defines this in terms of the number of 1/32 notes which make up the usual 24 MIDI Clocks (the 'standard' quarter note).

nn Time signature, numerator
dd Time signature, denominator expressed as a power of 2.
eg a denominator of 4 is expressed as dd=2
cc MIDI Clocks per metronome tick
bb Number of 1/32 notes per 24 MIDI clocks (8 is standard)

Another completely independant answer seems to agree. Unless I'm misunderstanding something.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:11 pm

I fear that then technical people and the musical people need to get together more and share ideas.I'm having a hard time over there because I first have to get through the musical misconceptions before I get to the technical ones. I took for granted that people understand 6/8 time.

http://thewombforums.com/showthread.php?t=15820

The interesting thing is that I know Otek programs some pretty killer beats. Which makes me think maybe I know too much theory for my own good. :oops:
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:35 am

So it's settled. Pro Tools does it right. MIDI doesn't seem to be the bottleneck, only individual programs. Cubase doesn't appear to do it right, and there's no way around it. Same for Sonar it seems.

IMO it's a strange oversight from the programmers end but after having had to argue that 6/8 is nothing like 3/4 to a bunch of people today, I guess what I take for granted as a given is not so widely accepted as the fact that it is. It seems that people refuse to believe that 6/8 is measured in dotted quarters. I guess it's fair to say that the makers of the programs feel the same way.

macrae11 wrote:Without any real experimenting, Logic appears to work as expected.


Hey Andrew could you expand on your findings?
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Postby macrae11 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:00 am

There's not much to expand on because that's pretty much it. I didn't even start up a click, which maybe would be totally different. Pretty much I started a session, set the meter to 6/8, and looked at the grid change. I'll look into in more this week when I get a second.
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