Recording and Mixing Bass

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Recording and Mixing Bass

Postby gamblor » Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:11 pm

How do people on this board go about dialing the mud out of a bass guitar, while still keeping it present in the mix? I’ve read a lot about how using a high pass filter will aid the process, but how exactly does this differ from using an eq. Can’t an eq be a high pass filter with the proper settings?

In any case, I’m using mostly eq to try and fix the problem I’m having. I’m cutting bass guitar at around 250 Hz and boosting the kick at the same frequency. I find the “mud” problem is happening at 250 and below, but at the same time these frequencies are very pleasing to the listener and help drive the rhythm of the song. Sometimes I think I’ll have it set just right, but then I’ll play the mix on another stereo and the bass will either be muddying up the whole mix or completely non-existent.

Help please!
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Re: Recording and Mixing Bass

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:28 pm

gamblor wrote:Can’t an eq be a high pass filter with the proper settings?

Yes. I don' know if I'd use a high pass filter on a bass though. There's some information way down there in the low frequencies that you might find useful.

gamblor wrote:In any case, I’m using mostly eq to try and fix the problem I’m having. I’m cutting bass guitar at around 250 Hz and boosting the kick at the same frequency. I find the “mud” problem is happening at 250 and below, but at the same time these frequencies are very pleasing to the listener and help drive the rhythm of the song. Sometimes I think I’ll have it set just right, but then I’ll play the mix on another stereo and the bass will either be muddying up the whole mix or completely non-existent.


This is of course all relative, but the relationship between the bass and the kick is a tricky one. I know that my Yamaha kick drum the way I tune and mic it has a sweet spot at around 70-80Hz. So I tend to boost that a bit to get the low end I want out of the kick, so that I "feel" it. But the sound of the kick for me comes from the 2K-3.5K range. That's where the kick is going to cut in the mix. Same goes for bass though, different frequencies but same concept. The "feel" comes from the low end but much of sound that cuts comes from the upper mids. The maint thing to take away here is that there's isn't just one frequency to any sound, the sound is actually a whole bunch of frequencies at different volumes come together. So pay attention to the upper mids to get the cut your are looking for and maybe you won't need to go so heavy on the "mud".

That's not even getting into compression either. Do you use any compression on these tracks?
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Re: Recording and Mixing Bass

Postby gamblor » Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:53 pm

Drumwaiter wrote:That's not even getting into compression either. Do you use any compression on these tracks?


I have, but I thought that it killed the dynamics so my current mix has none. Perhaps I just wasn't applying it correctly?
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Re: Recording and Mixing Bass

Postby macrae11 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:58 pm

Yeah it's a complex relationship between kick and bass. I almost never boost the same frequency on both, I'll usually have one sitting slightly under the other tone wise. For both I'll typically cut in the 200-400 range somewhere, not necessarily the whole range, but somewhere in there. Typically boost the kick somewhere between 2-6k, while I'll boost the bass somewhere between 900-2000Hz. For the low end, One will live more in the 40-80 range, and the other typically occupies the 80-120 range, although sometimes it'll be much tighter, like boosting the kick at 75 and boosting the bass at 85.

Another trick I'll pull out if the song calls for it, is large amounts of distortion on the bass. Usually from an amp, usually almost all midrange, usually on a separate track blended with the original clean bass sound. This give the bass presence and punch, and the impression of a thick meaty low end, without taking up as much space.

Compression is a whole nother ball o' wax. It's rare that I don't have at least some compression on the bass, although it largely depends on the player. Often I'm not using it to control dynamics so much, but more as a tone shaping tool, often to get the attack or point of the bass to sit where I want it.

This of course varies incredibly depending on the mix, instruments, groove, key, time signature, how hard they were played, type of skin/strings etc. etc. If you post something, we might be able to narrow things down somewhat.
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Re: Recording and Mixing Bass

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:19 pm

gamblor wrote:
Drumwaiter wrote:That's not even getting into compression either. Do you use any compression on these tracks?


I have, but I thought that it killed the dynamics so my current mix has none. Perhaps I just wasn't applying it correctly?


If you describe the sound as "killed dynamics" well it's possible you weren't applying it correctly if that wasn't the effect you were going for. Compression is more than just shaping dynamics, it can also affect the shape of the envelope which is a good way of getting the transient to sound the way you want, and get a certain perceived tone like Andrew said. That's all about how the attack and release is set. I've been on a compression kick lately, but mostly because Andrew is. I just saw him pull 40dB of GR on a lead vocal without me really noticing the compression, so it's been a hot topic with me as of late. Trying to push the boundaries of what I can do with compressors.

The reason I asked if you had any compression is because I wanted to know if there was anything else in the chain that hasn't an EQ that could be affect your mix. Since you pulled it all out it tells me that at least you are not fighting against that.

Otherwise whatever Andrew says is probably right but I will add one thing... try to get to the point (sooner rather than later) where you start a project with the endgame in mind. Don't ask yourself at tracking "Does this bass sound good?" ask yourself "Does this bass sound close to what I want it to sound like in the mix." But the one caveat is don't paint yourself into a corner. Don't compress or EQ something so hard going to tape that you can't dig yourself back out of the hole you're in.

If you take care at the tracking stage, the mixing stage gets easier. I'm sitting on bed tracks right now for a project that I'm producing, that Andrew recorded the bed tracks for. I have a hard time knowing where to start mixing because it already sounds deadly without even moving a fader or touching a knob. It's actually a tricky situation because I don't know where to go from here...I'll have to actually think really hard about this mix to even get started.
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Re: Recording and Mixing Bass

Postby Jef » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:03 am

Another consideration could be the other instruments within the mix. If you have a keyboard or guitar track that is producing tones that are similar to the bass track, it could throw your mix off too. I have heard guitar tracks that have a low frequency present which sounds really cool by itself, but in the mix, it totally sucks ass. This is caused from the frequency compounding its amplitude by overlapping the same frequency. If you have a particular frequency that is an issue with the bass, have a listen to the other tracks and maybe cut it there.
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Re: Recording and Mixing Bass

Postby RoadDog » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:55 pm

>grampa simpson voice< back in the old days, when digital was just cuttin' its tooth, and we used that wide iron oxide sticky stuff and them big honkin' magnets, an was tweekin' stuff like tape bias, us old timers would quite often play around with the 160Hz - 300Hz area. Whatever we would take out of the kick drum, we would sneak back into the bass guitar, especially when the bassist wasn't looking. The thought process was to carve out a low mid pocket in the kick... It was a dynamic range of the low midrange ability of the 2" stuff that led us to this scenario. This may or may not be relavent today with yer fancy pants workstations and yer consumer digital whos a ma whatits... popcorn
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Re: Recording and Mixing Bass

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:50 pm

Wow, so much on this thread while I wasn't able to answer.
gamblor wrote:How do people on this board go about dialing the mud out of a bass guitar, while still keeping it present in the mix? I’ve read a lot about how using a high pass filter will aid the process, but how exactly does this differ from using an eq. Can’t an eq be a high pass filter with the proper settings?
So, the bass gtr sound itself is "muddy" or the low end of the mix is? If it's the bass itself, you're in for a less satisfying result.

An HPF is an eq of a certain type, and in spite of what you might think (Matt) it does get used on "bass" instruments at times.

Drumwaiter wrote:This is of course all relative, but the relationship between the bass and the kick is a tricky one.
"Relationship" is a good word.

I often think of bass drum and bass guitar or synth and where they sit in regards to one another tonally. As simply as high thumpy kick drum with subby bass, or thumpy bass guitar and subby, more feel bass drum. This is most important to have that direction during the tracking phase.

gamblor wrote:
Drumwaiter wrote:That's not even getting into compression either. Do you use any compression on these tracks?


I have, but I thought that it killed the dynamics so my current mix has none. Perhaps I just wasn't applying it correctly?
I would have to agree with your assessment. I would try slowing the attack time down and/or lowering the ratio if you find it's crushing the vibe of the bass. With bass guitar, until you're doing something fairly aggressive, a moderate release speed will do fine to get you in the ballpark.

macrae11 wrote:It's rare that I don't have at least some compression on the bass, although it largely depends on the player. Often I'm not using it to control dynamics so much, but more as a tone shaping tool, often to get the attack or point of the bass to sit where I want it.
Pretty much same here. In the DAW world, I've also gotten addicted to more than one in series.

Drumwaiter wrote:... try to get to the point (sooner rather than later) where you start a project with the endgame in mind. Don't ask yourself at tracking "Does this bass sound good?" ask yourself "Does this bass sound close to what I want it to sound like in the mix." But the one caveat is don't paint yourself into a corner. Don't compress or EQ something so hard going to tape that you can't dig yourself back out of the hole you're in.

If you take care at the tracking stage, the mixing stage gets easier.
More than one recording has been ruined by missing this key point. Especially in this digital, endless numbers of tracks, world.

Jef wrote:Another consideration could be the other instruments within the mix. If you have a keyboard or guitar track that is producing tones that are similar to the bass track, it could throw your mix off too. I have heard guitar tracks that have a low frequency present which sounds really cool by itself, but in the mix, it totally sucks ass. This is caused from the frequency compounding its amplitude by overlapping the same frequency. If you have a particular frequency that is an issue with the bass, have a listen to the other tracks and maybe cut it there.
Why listening to things in context during tracking is imperative. Also why making tonal decisions while tracking can make mixing an easier process.

'Is that piano too bottom heavy for the drums and bass?'

I also tend to listen to groups of instruments and/or vocals together to hear how specific things are interacting. Not just solo or every track up.

Drums+Bass+Piano
Electric and Acoustic Guitars
Acoustic Guitar + Bass + Drums
Electric Guitars + Bass + Drums
...etc.

It helps me hear how different things are relating. This is more of an overall methodology and not relating specific to bass.

For me, with bass guitar, I will rarely EQ an already good tone. Give me a decent direct track from a great player, and I'm 98% home. Much EQ for me on bass means there's something wrong with what was recorded. I will usually shape the "tone" with compression, not EQ.

It seems like there are so many questions about getting low end right. I would agree it can be a bit of a trick, and I think knowing what you can expect in your monitoring is part of why it is so difficult for so many.
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Re: Recording and Mixing Bass

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:29 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:An HPF is an eq of a certain type, and in spite of what you might think (Matt) it does get used on "bass" instruments at times.

Sure, I guess it's not impossible. A person might want to eliminate anything below 80 Hz for example... but it's not something I'd do without a proper rationale. I didn't want to suggest it to him without proper context. Personally though,I have yet to do it but I can see where a person might.
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Re: Recording and Mixing Bass

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:32 pm

Drumwaiter wrote:
Malcolm Boyce wrote:An HPF is an eq of a certain type, and in spite of what you might think (Matt) it does get used on "bass" instruments at times.

Sure, I guess it's not impossible. A person might want to eliminate anything below 80 Hz for example... but it's not something I'd do without a proper rationale. I didn't want to suggest it to him without proper context. Personally though,I have yet to do it but I can see where a person might.
You're talking about "eliminating" as if an HPF actually does that. It's a slope and nothing more, sometimes adjustable. Stop thinking about it as a straight vertical line and you might try it on more things.
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Re: Recording and Mixing Bass

Postby macrae11 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:51 pm

The stock digi EQ is great for that very flexible hi/lo pass filters with lots of slope variations. I'll often put a gentle low pass filter on with a low shelf boost to shape the low end.
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Re: Recording and Mixing Bass

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:59 pm

I know the slope is adjustable, but I don't think of things in terms of HPF or LPF. It's all EQing to me... When someone says HPF I usually assume that whatever the slope there's a -24 gain at the end of it. I guess you may be right my own definitions may be too black and white.
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Re: Recording and Mixing Bass

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:28 pm

macrae11 wrote:The stock digi EQ is great for that very flexible hi/lo pass filters with lots of slope variations.
The stock Sonar EQ is the same. Very useful tool.

Drumwaiter wrote:I know the slope is adjustable, but I don't think of things in terms of HPF or LPF. It's all EQing to me... When someone says HPF I usually assume that whatever the slope there's a -24 gain at the end of it.
I'm not super clear on what you mean here. -24?
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Re: Recording and Mixing Bass

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:11 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:
Drumwaiter wrote:I know the slope is adjustable, but I don't think of things in terms of HPF or LPF. It's all EQing to me... When someone says HPF I usually assume that whatever the slope there's a -24 gain at the end of it.
I'm not super clear on what you mean here. -24?


It's the lowest my stock Cubase EQ will take me. -18dB if I'm in Pro Tools. It's the number that I'd associate with "eliminate" I guess... haha. Look, I'm not arguing with you, it's just typically when I high pass something, I'm cutting into something in a pretty severe way. But I understand what you are saying, and for the record you are 100% right. A HPF can be as gentle as you want it to be depending on how many dB you want to cut per octave and where you start.
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Re: Recording and Mixing Bass

Postby macrae11 » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:47 am

Just to clarify, Matt I'm pretty sure you're referring to -24dB/octave?
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Re: Recording and Mixing Bass

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:29 am

macrae11 wrote:Just to clarify, Matt I'm pretty sure you're referring to -24dB/octave?

Not exactly, because that would be the slope. What I'm saying is I'm used to seeing HPF where the combination of the slope and the frequency means that you are bottoming out before you get to 25Hz, meaning that something is getting "eliminated". Malcolm is simply clarifying that that isn't always the case, and I'm agreeing with him. But I maintain that in the context of this discussion I felt like the word "eliminate" might describe what he was thinking of doing.

I should have suggested that maybe he start by boosting the lows and sweep to find the offending frequency and then start by notching that out while adjusting the Q to get the desired result. That's normally what I try before just high pass filtering something. But in the end it doesn't matter, because it's all relative to what he's hearing and anything we say is just speculation.
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