The Compression Thread

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Re: The Compression Thread

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:02 pm

Christian LeBlanc wrote:Before we start talking about noise floors and creative uses of, and differences between, compression/limiting/gating, how about we start with common uses of compression? What instruments typically get more compression, and which get less? And for what reasons?
Everything is fair game in my world. I love compression as a shaping tool.
Vocals... Yes.
Bass Gtr Direct... Probably.
Other Direct instruments like Acou Gtrs, Violins... Probably.
Drums... Sometimes.

Really though, instead of looking at a list of who uses what, I'd rather explain an understanding of why. When mixing, you are trying to blend these different sources. Just like EQ, compression is a tool that helps take sounds, and shape them into something that blends the way you want it. I'll use an extreme example of a rock track with heavy distorted elec. gtrs. The guitars themselves will not be very dynamic, so you will tend to need to limit other sources to have them balance with these other already compressed sounds. Not only level wise, but tone wise you will find things will work better in this case.

Christian LeBlanc wrote:My understanding is that bass guitar, especially when locked in with the rhythm, will get more than most instruments.
Lead guitar may get a touch,
That bass analogy doesn't work for me. It's strictly a case by case thing. "Lead Guitar" is not something that stands out for me as an example of what to compress.
Christian LeBlanc wrote:...while compression will vary from singer to singer, and from piece to piece. If one singer's volume levels are unintentionally all over the place, then a compressor is the best solution (other than, you know, vocal training and practice), right?
Compressing a vocal for me is all about creating a tone first, and getting it to sit in with the instruments second. People think it's just about getting every word up over the guitars, but it's not. If I gave you a track to mix with a great vocal and nothing else, might you compress it?

Christian LeBlanc wrote:What about singers who appear to sing at almost a whisper, yet manage to get amplified quite loudly without horrible feedback from their microphones? What's going on "behind the scenes" to keep the noise floor at bay? Or is there something else at play? (as an example, I'm thinking of Julie Doiron, but anyone with 'quiet' vocals will do)
EDIT: I've spent years using a cheap microphone, and I completely forgot about the properties a good microphone can have: one that's balanced, designed to only pick up the singer, etc. So, it's probably safe to ignore this part of the question ;)
I guess you're meaning live on this one. Choice of microphone is a huge thing, as you've already figured out. There are times where I will have some substantial amount of gain reduction going on in a vocal mic live without being anywhere near "feedback" during the quiet parts. That being said, sometimes it is a balancing act. I have had lead vocal mics at the threshold of feedback in the FOH mix many times. That's when having the proper gear, and experience is what will get you where you need to be.

By "noise floor", I'm not exactly sure what you mean. It wouldn't be electrical related noise in a live setting with a proper setup, but stage volume is especially bad when dealing with quiet vocals. A quiet female vocalist 4' in front of a drum kit is a nightmare sometimes.

Sometimes this sound thing is actually work.
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Re: The Compression Thread

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:08 pm

Jef wrote:...not to be confused with the 'stomp box' type instrument compressor units. I find most of these units very limiting (pardon the pun) as to what can be controlled. Some have nothing more than an on/off switch and two knobs... one for "gain" and one for "compression".
These may be an idiot proof device for the uninformed, but really, if you have no control of the threshold, ratio, attack, & release, what real good are they?
With devices well designed for specific purposes, you may not need all the controls up front. I have used many great comps with preset overeasy ratios with stellar outcome. Sometimes you just don't need anything other than input and output.

Many classic compressor/limiters don't have "all" the settings adjustable. It just is, what it is.
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Re: The Compression Thread

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:29 pm

macrae11 wrote:The first rule is there are no rules. Every situation is different and you have to use your ears. That being said, I have some places that I seem to end up often. .......

As far as uses of compression, I've smashed just about everything imaginable at some point or another...
Yes X4

macrae11 wrote:Bass really depends on the player. I will use it for volume control on a poor or erratic player, or if doing some slapping and popping. If I need to thicken things up I'll compress quite heavily, but almost always with a very slow attack so lots of point gets through so things stay well defined. release depends on the type of groove of the song.
All very good and true.

macrae11 wrote:Vocals I'll do anything from no compression to insane amounts. Depends depends depends......
.... Very often I'll chain multiple compressor together in series. Usually just two, but sometimes 3 or 4. ....... Having a compressed signal going into a compressor changes how things work in a really fun way.
Can't agree more. Vocals in "Pop" music need, and deserve the work that they get IMO. A missed point for folks jamming vocals over a slammin' mix instead of complementing the vocal.
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Re: The Compression Thread

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Wed May 25, 2011 10:46 am

Well... no sense letting a good thread go to waste.

Let's talk about sidechaining compression. Sidechaining is basically using an external source (not the signal that you are trying to compress) to control the compressor. There are a ton of uses for this.

Image

There are a ton of uses for this, I suppose.

I was using it recently to duck the initial part of the transients in a bass track under the kick by using the kick drum track as the "key" and setting a fast attack and release time. The fast attack and decay of the kick made it so just the very start of the bass note was compressed. It didn't really affect the bass at all, but it did make it so the snap of the kick poke through just nice. It's actually the first time I've used this technique on a real project. Mostly becauce I've never tracked a bass that sounds like this before and although the kick and bass were competing for the same territory I didn't want to sacrifice the sound of either by applying EQ to make them work together.

I'm also applying the same concept to the bass using a gate. Keying the gate off the kick to tighten things up. The project is really putting my knowledge to the test. It's definitely the most challeging project I've done to date from an engineering standpoint. It's good for me though, I'm constantly learning.

Anyways, I just wanted to share an experience I had.
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Re: The Compression Thread

Postby macrae11 » Wed May 25, 2011 12:45 pm

Just curious, how are you using the gate on the bass? Not quite something I've done before.
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Re: The Compression Thread

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Wed May 25, 2011 1:25 pm

macrae11 wrote:Just curious, how are you using the gate on the bass? Not quite something I've done before.


I'm trying it in sections of fast playing where the bass and kick are playing the same rhythmic pattern (like a stretch of 16th note triplets for example.) In this style of music it's far more common for the kick and bass to play the same thing than it would be in the pop/country/rock stuff that we normally do. It's maybe something you can try when we give you a song to mix, once the tracking is all done.
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Re: The Compression Thread

Postby macrae11 » Wed May 25, 2011 3:38 pm

Ah the metal project, I was thinking of another project on the go.

Side Chaining is fun.
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Re: The Compression Thread

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Wed May 25, 2011 11:32 pm

Mathieu Benoit wrote:Let's talk about sidechaining compression. Sidechaining is basically using an external source (not the signal that you are trying to compress) to control the compressor.
Sidechaining can also include using a processed version of the signal you are trying to effect as the key in. A typical example of this would be using an aggressively EQd version of a track as a key in to trigger compression differently than using what is passing through the comp.
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Re: The Compression Thread

Postby Alain Benoit » Thu May 26, 2011 1:03 am

Mathieu Benoit wrote:
Let's talk about sidechaining compression. Sidechaining is basically using an external source (not the signal that you are trying to compress) to control the compressor. There are a ton of uses for this.



Not entirely accurate, the sidechain in a compressor is the derivated input signal used to modulate the gain control element. If it comes from an external source it it called a key input. The sidechain I/O on most compressors is simply an insert point to the sidechain signal. As Malcolm alluded to earlier, processing this signal can yield very useful results, for example, hearing your compressor pumping too much with the kick drum to the point that's its modulating the mix in an undesireable way, simply high pass the sidechain to taste, many compressors these days come with this feature on the front panel.
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Re: The Compression Thread

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu May 26, 2011 9:38 am

Malcolm Boyce wrote:
Mathieu Benoit wrote:Let's talk about sidechaining compression. Sidechaining is basically using an external source (not the signal that you are trying to compress) to control the compressor.
Sidechaining can also include using a processed version of the signal you are trying to effect as the key in. A typical example of this would be using an aggressively EQd version of a track as a key in to trigger compression differently than using what is passing through the comp.

...Which is basically how a de-esser works, but it's still not the same signal either way. You are still trying to process one signal while using information from a different source (in this case an aggresively EQd version of the original signal.)

EDIT: I see what you mean now... I just look at it differently. For me what's coming back from the insert point isn't the "same" signal per se, it's been processed. But for the sake of this conversation I definitely agree with you, since it makes it easier to qualify the difference from a key control which is coming from a whole different place entirely.

Thanks for clarifying.
Last edited by Mathieu Benoit on Thu May 26, 2011 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Compression Thread

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu May 26, 2011 9:55 am

Alain Benoit wrote:
Mathieu Benoit wrote:
Let's talk about sidechaining compression. Sidechaining is basically using an external source (not the signal that you are trying to compress) to control the compressor. There are a ton of uses for this.



Not entirely accurate, the sidechain in a compressor is the derivated input signal used to modulate the gain control element. If it comes from an external source it it called a key input.


Right, otherwise it's just a straight up insert point. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Re: The Compression Thread

Postby Alain Benoit » Fri May 27, 2011 5:38 am

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Re: The Compression Thread

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sun May 29, 2011 9:34 pm

Mathieu Benoit wrote:
Malcolm Boyce wrote:
Mathieu Benoit wrote:Let's talk about sidechaining compression. Sidechaining is basically using an external source (not the signal that you are trying to compress) to control the compressor.
Sidechaining can also include using a processed version of the signal you are trying to effect as the key in. A typical example of this would be using an aggressively EQd version of a track as a key in to trigger compression differently than using what is passing through the comp.

...Which is basically how a de-esser works, but it's still not the same signal either way. You are still trying to process one signal while using information from a different source (in this case an aggresively EQd version of the original signal.)...
You lost me here. Most modern "de-essers" are band pass compressors or some form of "dynamic EQ". Think of a very specific type of multi band compressor, and that'd be a dedicated de-esser. The compression is narrow band, not full range.

I'm sure early cracks at creating a de-"S" effect were using compressors with a band pass EQ on the key in, but I know I don't think of a de esser that way. It certainly wouldn't be very popular with the options we have available today.
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Re: The Compression Thread

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sun May 29, 2011 9:44 pm

Alain Benoit wrote:
Mathieu Benoit wrote:
Let's talk about sidechaining compression. Sidechaining is basically using an external source (not the signal that you are trying to compress) to control the compressor. There are a ton of uses for this.



Not entirely accurate, the sidechain in a compressor is the derivated input signal used to modulate the gain control element. If it comes from an external source it it called a key input. The sidechain I/O on most compressors is simply an insert point to the sidechain signal. As Malcolm alluded to earlier, processing this signal can yield very useful results, for example, hearing your compressor pumping too much with the kick drum to the point that's its modulating the mix in an undesireable way, simply high pass the sidechain to taste, many compressors these days come with this feature on the front panel.
The term "Key Input" isn't really just limited to external sources. Many processors will allow you to select the "key input" and will include such options as "self pre EQ/self post EQ" or other options. It just another way things have changed with technology.

Although you are correct about the term "sidechain", popular use has come to generally ignore the existence of the "side chain" unless you are using an external or processed version of the original signal. I know I use, and understand the use of side chain the way Matt is talking about it.

I actually looked "side chain" up in an old text book, and the entry in it was for Dolby NR systems where the sidechain was a parallel signal path that was processed and re combined with the original.
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Re: The Compression Thread

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Mon May 30, 2011 10:01 am

Malcolm Boyce wrote: Most modern "de-essers" are band pass compressors or some form of "dynamic EQ". Think of a very specific type of multi band compressor, and that'd be a dedicated de-esser. The compression is narrow band, not full range.
I think it's time for someone to explain the difference between this and having a bandpass EQ on the sidechain. I guess I just can't see the difference yet and it's probably because I don't really know what the definition of a bandpass compressor is.
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Re: The Compression Thread

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Mon May 30, 2011 2:57 pm

Mathieu Benoit wrote:
Malcolm Boyce wrote: Most modern "de-essers" are band pass compressors or some form of "dynamic EQ". Think of a very specific type of multi band compressor, and that'd be a dedicated de-esser. The compression is narrow band, not full range.
I think it's time for someone to explain the difference between this and having a bandpass EQ on the sidechain. I guess I just can't see the difference yet and it's probably because I don't really know what the definition of a bandpass compressor is.
A de-esser is only going to attenuate or effect a narrow band of audio, like a parametric EQ is only going to effect a band of audio, and not the entire audio band. It's like, a compressor is pulling the whole fader down, and a de-esser is an EQ attenuating.

When you are adjusting the key in signal, for example band passing the audio input, you are only adjusting what the compressor is basing it's attenuation on, and nothing to do with the audio passing through it. It's two parallel signal paths with one being what you are hearing through the device, and one being what the devices is using to "key" the dynamics. Some software based dynamics processors will let you listen to the "sidechain" to fine tune what it is doing. I don't know if hardware devices exist that allow the same option.
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Re: The Compression Thread

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Mon May 30, 2011 3:07 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:
Mathieu Benoit wrote:
Malcolm Boyce wrote: Most modern "de-essers" are band pass compressors or some form of "dynamic EQ". Think of a very specific type of multi band compressor, and that'd be a dedicated de-esser. The compression is narrow band, not full range.
I think it's time for someone to explain the difference between this and having a bandpass EQ on the sidechain. I guess I just can't see the difference yet and it's probably because I don't really know what the definition of a bandpass compressor is.
A de-esser is only going to attenuate or effect a narrow band of audio, like a parametric EQ is only going to effect a band of audio, and not the entire audio band. It's like, a compressor is pulling the whole fader down, and a de-esser is an EQ attenuating.

When you are adjusting the key in signal, for example band passing the audio input, you are only adjusting what the compressor is basing it's attenuation on, and nothing to do with the audio passing through it. It's two parallel signal paths with one being what you are hearing through the device, and one being what the devices is using to "key" the dynamics. Some software based dynamics processors will let you listen to the "sidechain" to fine tune what it is doing. I don't know if hardware devices exist that allow the same option.


Makes sense to me. That actually clarifies it quite a bit. I'd like to try an A/B test to see what the difference in sound is from one to the other though.
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Re: The Compression Thread

Postby macrae11 » Mon May 30, 2011 5:37 pm

I'm pretty sure the stock digi de-esser will allow you to switch between only attenuating the hi end vs attenuating the entire signal. Most of the time I leave it in "EQ" mode as Malcolm explained, but doing full band reduction can be very helpful for singers with severe or multiple sibilance issues.
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Re: The Compression Thread

Postby Alain Benoit » Mon May 30, 2011 7:58 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote: Some software based dynamics processors will let you listen to the "sidechain" to fine tune what it is doing. I don't know if hardware devices exist that allow the same option.


This one has it. Look for the square red button that says S.C. MON.
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Re: The Compression Thread

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Mon May 30, 2011 10:31 pm

Alain Benoit wrote:
Malcolm Boyce wrote: Some software based dynamics processors will let you listen to the "sidechain" to fine tune what it is doing. I don't know if hardware devices exist that allow the same option.


This one has it. Look for the square red button that says S.C. MON.
Doesn't surprise me, although I can't get that page to load for me.
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Re: The Compression Thread

Postby Alain Benoit » Mon May 30, 2011 11:22 pm

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