middleaudio.com

I want to run my sequencer, into my guitar pedals, and into my mixer.

This means that I need to start from the sequencer at line-level, drop down into instrument level, go through my pedal chain at instrument-level, and into the mixer at line-level.

Going into the mixer at line-level from the guitar pedals, I believe I need a DI, right? What factors determine if I should look for an active or passive DI?

Going from the sequencer into the guitar pedals, now, is a bit trickier. I've been doing research on different ways to drop from line-level to instrument-level, and most signs point to re-amps. Which is bittersweet, because spending $250 kinda blows.

One thread I found said to try using a guitar pedal in bypass mode to work as a re-amp, which I will try tonight. Before I do, I just wanted to ask everyone here for some tips on going from line-level to instrument-level. Discuss!

Christian LeBlanc wrote:Going from the sequencer into the guitar pedals, now, is a bit trickier. I've been doing research on different ways to drop from line-level to instrument-level, and most signs point to re-amps. Which is bittersweet, because spending $250 kinda blows.

That being said... if you bought a Redeye you'd have a killer DI and a re-amp box all in one.

From your sequencer to your pedal, a re-amp device is the proper way to do it as it is the only device designed to match the levels properly as well as impedance. Short of that a simple "T" or "H" pad might do, if it is designed with the I/O impedance in mind. is the line output of your sequencer balanced or not, +4dBu or -10dBv nominal, and what is the specified output impedance of the device?

From the pedal to the mixer a DI is definitely the way to go as like the re-amp box it will match levels as well as impedance, now keep in mind that a DI active or otherwise will only output a mic level signal so it needs to be plugged in to a mic pre and NOT the line input on your mixer as you stated.

A.

As Al said, the most often overlooked issue of proper impedance matching is as important as levels.

Alain Benoit wrote:From the pedal to the mixer a DI is definitely the way to go as like the re-amp box it will match levels as well as impedance, now keep in mind that a DI active or otherwise will only output a mic level signal so it needs to be plugged in to a mic pre and NOT the line input on your mixer as you stated.

I may not be following you on this. The output level of a DI would be related to it's input level as well as it's ability to pad or boost it's throughput. A DI with a strong signal on input, and with higher than unity gain can certainly overload the input of many mic pre's without a pad.

Christian LeBlanc wrote:I want to run my sequencer, into my guitar pedals, and into my mixer.

This means that I need to start from the sequencer at line-level, drop down into instrument level, go through my pedal chain at instrument-level, and into the mixer at line-level.

By line level do you mean +4dBu or -10dBV? I'll assume +4dBu for now.

Christian LeBlanc wrote:Going into the mixer at line-level from the guitar pedals, I believe I need a DI, right? What factors determine if I should look for an active or passive DI?

Yes and no. Does your mixer have line level inputs? If it does then you just do that. DIs are for impedance differences like the high impedance of a line level signal going into the low impedance of a mic level input, for example. As for the active/passive thing... it doesn't matter that much, active DIs require phantom because they have a preamplifier, so they tend to be a much hotter output than a passive DI.

Christian LeBlanc wrote:Going from the sequencer into the guitar pedals, now, is a bit trickier. I've been doing research on different ways to drop from line-level to instrument-level, and most signs point to re-amps. Which is bittersweet, because spending $250 kinda blows.

I can't think of any other way off the top of my head. Because your pedal is certainly not expecting +4dBu smashing into it, you'll overload the input.

Wow, this would be a great topic to put in the technical forum. If we only knew someone that knew a lot about "electronics" to "moderate" it... Wait a second didn't why used to have two guys for that? I Thom left, but who was the other guy?

Drumwaiter wrote:

Christian LeBlanc wrote:Going into the mixer at line-level from the guitar pedals, I believe I need a DI, right? What factors determine if I should look for an active or passive DI?

Yes and no. Does your mixer have line level inputs? If it does then you just do that. DIs are for impedance differences like the high impedance of a line level signal going into the low impedance of a mic level input, for example. As for the active/passive thing... it doesn't matter that much, active DIs require phantom because they have a preamplifier, so they tend to be a much hotter output than a passive DI.

Oops... I forgot you aren't outputting "line level" from the guitar pedal you meant to say "instrument level" so I take that back. You'll need a DI going into a mic preamp to do it right and a re-amp box to get the signal in the pedals to begin with.

Malcolm Boyce wrote:As Al said, the most often overlooked issue of proper impedance matching is as important as levels.

Alain Benoit wrote:From the pedal to the mixer a DI is definitely the way to go as like the re-amp box it will match levels as well as impedance, now keep in mind that a DI active or otherwise will only output a mic level signal so it needs to be plugged in to a mic pre and NOT the line input on your mixer as you stated.

I may not be following you on this. The output level of a DI would be related to it's input level as well as it's ability to pad or boost it's throughput. A DI with a strong signal on input, and with higher than unity gain can certainly overload the input of many mic pre's without a pad.

True, just as I have plugged in an MD441 on a snare into the line input of a tc equalizer and been good to go.
That being said DI's typically have a low impedance output <1k, and do not have a nominal level of +4dBu which a line level input is expecting to see.

Drumwaiter wrote:

Christian LeBlanc wrote:Going into the mixer at line-level from the guitar pedals, I believe I need a DI, right? What factors determine if I should look for an active or passive DI?

Yes and no. Does your mixer have line level inputs? If it does then you just do that.

As well, many consoles/interfaces have inputs specifically for "instrument" inputs including some "line level" ins that have a switch to match impedance.

Drumwaiter wrote:

Christian LeBlanc wrote:Going from the sequencer into the guitar pedals, now, is a bit trickier. I've been doing research on different ways to drop from line-level to instrument-level, and most signs point to re-amps. Which is bittersweet, because spending $250 kinda blows.

I can't think of any other way off the top of my head. Because your pedal is certainly not expecting +4dBu smashing into it, you'll overload the input.

And, most importantly, the pedals are most likely looking to see an instrument's output impedance as opposed a console or other audio device. This is the more "tricky" part of the path and hence, the probable need for a specific device to match it.

Malcolm Boyce wrote:As Al said, the most often overlooked issue of proper impedance matching is as important as levels.

Alain Benoit wrote:From the pedal to the mixer a DI is definitely the way to go as like the re-amp box it will match levels as well as impedance, now keep in mind that a DI active or otherwise will only output a mic level signal so it needs to be plugged in to a mic pre and NOT the line input on your mixer as you stated.

I may not be following you on this. The output level of a DI would be related to it's input level as well as it's ability to pad or boost it's throughput. A DI with a strong signal on input, and with higher than unity gain can certainly overload the input of many mic pre's without a pad.

Yeah but even if it's a hot mic level, it's still technically considered mic level. That's why most active DIs have pads, but even if it's a passive DI the pad on the mic preamp should take care of it in most cases. Alain's point is just that the DI isn't looking to go into a line input.

Malcolm Boyce wrote:And, most importantly, the pedals are most likely looking to see an instrument's output impedance as opposed a console or other audio device. This is the more "tricky" part of the path and hence, the probable need for a specific device to match it.

Yes, you are right.

Generally too many people stick their collective heads in the sand when it comes to impedance matching, it is as crucial as level matching maybe even more important. Most of us know what happens when an amplifier sees too low of a load, but in the world of mic, instrument, balanced and unbalanced line level signals, improper impedance matching can lead to loading side effects which can cause severe bandpassing issues thus tonal shifts.

Alain Benoit wrote:Generally too many people stick their collective heads in the sand when it comes to impedance matching, it is as crucial as level matching maybe even more important. Most of us know what happens when an amplifier sees too low of a load, but in the world of mic, instrument, balanced and unbalanced line level signals, improper impedance matching can lead to loading side effects which can cause severe bandpassing issues thus tonal shifts.

Can I get an Amen?

Drumwaiter wrote:That being said... if you bought a Redeye you'd have a killer DI and a re-amp box all in one.

It'd be one at a time, though, right? Not both at once? Both at once would be pretty sweet :)

Alain Benoit wrote:...now keep in mind that a DI active or otherwise will only output a mic level signal so it needs to be plugged in to a mic pre and NOT the line input on your mixer as you stated.

I meant to say that, but my mind was visualizing the wrong thing (my mixer takes both xlr mic inputs and 1/4" line level). :)

I'm not sure about the sequencer, but the effects loop on my mixer, which I also want to play around with, is +4dBu. Up until recently, I didn't understand that the effects for the loop in question were assumed to be rack-mounted gear, not guitar pedals. I'm learnin', I'm learnin' ;)

And as I say, the inputs can be either XLR or 1/4" line-level. Sadly, there's no switches to accept instrument-level on it; but buying a DI ain't such a scary thing. Buying a re-amp kind of is

Thanks for the replies! Now who wants to sell Christian cheap re-amps ;)

Christian LeBlanc wrote:Thanks for the replies! Now who wants to sell Christian cheap re-amps ;)

If it doesn't already exist, Al would probably make you a cheap device to go simply from console line out to "pedal" or "amp" in.

Al... Doable, or prohibitively pricey?

Christian LeBlanc wrote:

Drumwaiter wrote:That being said... if you bought a Redeye you'd have a killer DI and a re-amp box all in one.

It'd be one at a time, though, right? Not both at once? Both at once would be pretty sweet :)

Unfortunately one mode at a time yes.

Christian LeBlanc wrote:
I'm not sure about the sequencer, but the effects loop on my mixer, which I also want to play around with, is +4dBu. Up until recently, I didn't understand that the effects for the loop in question were assumed to be rack-mounted gear, not guitar pedals. I'm learnin', I'm learnin' ;)

Glad that you got that one figured out, you'll notice that some better designed guitar amps these days will have a level switch on their FX loops, +4dBu for professional rackmount gear, and instrument level for stomp boxes.
No run out and buy yourself your first passive DI, L&M stock the Radial PRO DI, a great box for under $100, ya just have to have one.

Malcolm Boyce wrote:

Christian LeBlanc wrote:Thanks for the replies! Now who wants to sell Christian cheap re-amps ;)

If it doesn't already exist, Al would probably make you a cheap device to go simply from console line out to "pedal" or "amp" in.

Al... Doable, or prohibitively pricey?

$40.
Elegant package though.

I was looking at Radial, actually, because they also make a Pro RMP re-amp, but it only accepts XLR for the input (which none of my line-level devices, or effects loop, have coming out).

I'm not sure if you mean $40 just for materials, or materials and labour included...either way, I'll PM you in a minute here :)

Christian LeBlanc wrote:I was looking at Radial, actually, because they also make a Pro RMP re-amp, but it only accepts XLR for the input (which none of my line-level devices, or effects loop, have coming out).

I'm not sure if you mean $40 just for materials, or materials and labour included...either way, I'll PM you in a minute here :)

$40 total plus taxes. I custom build them for specific applications.
Don't PM me as I am never here, instead email me.

Everythings been well covered here, but just to play devils advocate: yes impedance mis-matching will change your tone and certainly won't be transparent, but that doesn't mean it will necessarily sound bad per se. I've had some fun patching some line level signals into guitar amps and really pushing them into their uncomfortable zone. Just know that I'm not responsible if you blow stuff up. And it's always good to have the proper way to do things for the 99% of the time when that's the right choice.

Alain Benoit wrote:Don't PM me as I am never here, instead email me.

Too late! I'll send you an email too, though.

macrae11 wrote:Everythings been well covered here, but just to play devils advocate: yes impedance mis-matching will change your tone and certainly won't be transparent, but that doesn't mean it will necessarily sound bad per se. I've had some fun patching some line level signals into guitar amps and really pushing them into their uncomfortable zone. Just know that I'm not responsible if you blow stuff up. And it's always good to have the proper way to do things for the 99% of the time when that's the right choice.

It's all about understanding the rules before bending them. A good rule of thumb if you are going to experiment is to try and keep the source impedance lower than the load.
Also most people have noticed by now a trend in mic preamps to have switchable or variable input impedance as a form of tone control.

I've got to say though Al, it's great having you back around here for a bit.

Follow-up time! Upon closer inspection of my mixer, the return of my effects loop send/return is a pair of 1/4", +4dBu inputs (I assume this means 1/4" balanced, as unbalanced would make it -10dBV?)

So if I want to go from my guitar pedals back into the mixer, a traditional DI box won't quite do what I want it to, for this particular effects loop. Which means what I need is...

-a pre-amp?
-a DI that will output at line level, coupled with a cable that has XLR on one end and 1/4" TRS on the other?

I have a USB audio interface that will accept instrument-level and output into a pair of unbalanced RCA outputs that I could use, but that's still going out at -10dBV, not the +4dBu that I need.

I tried looking up the answer online, and came close, but I'm honestly spent :) My thanks in advance for any more advice; I really appreciate the help I already got today.

Before we go any further down the rabbit hole, can you tell us what mixer you are using? It'll help to visual what your possible options are. Because as you have already guessed your effect loop wasn't made for this purpose, but if you have an aux out and you bring it back into a preamp that might be easier.