line-level to instrument-level and vice-versa

Tech talk about audio recording and live stage production.
---Hosted by Andrew MacRae & Malcolm Boyce

Re: line-level to instrument-level and vice-versa

Postby Christian LeBlanc » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:46 pm

Great idea - I have the Yamaha MG124CX; the user guide on pg. 14/24 covers the master control section, which shows the effects send/return.

It says that both the Aux and the Effect sends are each an "impedence-balanced phone-jack type output," while the return jacks are "unbalanced phone-jack type line inputs." Effect send/returns all seems to be at +4dBu.

According to the user guide for my usb audio interface (Tascam US-122L), pg.23/28 says that the nominal output level is -10dBV, which doesn't quite match up...and which makes me think I need some form of pre-amp or some such.
User avatar
Christian LeBlanc
Silver Member
 
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:05 pm

Re: line-level to instrument-level and vice-versa

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:55 pm

Christian LeBlanc wrote:Great idea - I have the Yamaha MG124CX; the user guide

There is no reason why you can't bring things back in on a channel's "line in" in this case without the use of a DI. You will have control over level with the input gain. Although not "perfect", you need the DI less than the device to go from the console to the "effect" box.
"Once again, it is NEVER the gear that makes a good record.
It just fills Forum pages..." --compasspnt

middleaudio.com
User avatar
Malcolm Boyce
Your Humble Host
 
Posts: 3681
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:07 am
Location: Saint John, NB

Re: line-level to instrument-level and vice-versa

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:56 pm

Christian LeBlanc wrote:Follow-up time! Upon closer inspection of my mixer, the return of my effects loop send/return is a pair of 1/4", +4dBu inputs (I assume this means 1/4" balanced, as unbalanced would make it -10dBV?)
No. Balanced VS Unbalanced has nothing to do with level.
"Once again, it is NEVER the gear that makes a good record.
It just fills Forum pages..." --compasspnt

middleaudio.com
User avatar
Malcolm Boyce
Your Humble Host
 
Posts: 3681
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:07 am
Location: Saint John, NB

Re: line-level to instrument-level and vice-versa

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:09 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:
Christian LeBlanc wrote:Follow-up time! Upon closer inspection of my mixer, the return of my effects loop send/return is a pair of 1/4", +4dBu inputs (I assume this means 1/4" balanced, as unbalanced would make it -10dBV?)
No. Balanced VS Unbalanced has nothing to do with level.


Yeah and for further clarification for anyone wondering how it works...

The term "balanced" comes from the method of connecting each wire to identical impedances at source and load. This means that much of the electromagnetic interference will induce an equal noise voltage in each wire. Since the amplifier at the far end measures the difference in voltage between the two signal lines, noise that is identical on both wires is rejected. The noise received in the second, inverted line is applied against the first, upright signal, and cancels it out when the two signals are subtracted.
"Volume automation takes time. You don't got that kinda time. You could be getting naked with somebody somewhere." -Slipperman

Mathieu Benoit - Fluid Productions
www.fluidaudiogroup.com
www.facebook.com/FluidAudioGroup
User avatar
Mathieu Benoit
Drumwaiter
 
Posts: 4707
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:55 pm
Location: Saint John, New Brunswick

Re: line-level to instrument-level and vice-versa

Postby Christian LeBlanc » Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:12 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:
Christian LeBlanc wrote:Great idea - I have the Yamaha MG124CX; the user guide

There is no reason why you can't bring things back in on a channel's "line in" in this case without the use of a DI. You will have control over level with the input gain. Although not "perfect", you need the DI less than the device to go from the console to the "effect" box.


I see what you're getting at; instrument-level back to the mixer's line-in can be turned up, more so than line-level to instrument-level can be turned down. I might get a little bit of hiss, but if I do, I can worry about it then. Worst-case scenario, if I get a little bit of noise going from the pedals back into the mixer (and I've narrowed it down to that exchange), I'm guessing that some form of pre-amp is what I'd need then.

And about the balancing - it sure is easy to get the wrong impression about -10 dBV and +4 dBu on that world wide web of deception out there :oops: My bad. I've even seen a forum where someone with 20+ yrs of professional experience was getting in a snit-fit with someone claiming 30+ yrs of experience, over this very topic. While I'm quite obviously in the midst of getting the hang of all of this, it strikes me that this really shouldn't be such a high source of misinformation out there.

Just to make sure I'm getting my theory right: a balanced mic-level signal is way more important (and, therefore, the standard) than a balanced line-level signal, due to electromagnetic interference being more of an issue with the quieter signals that go with mic-level, right?

Or, to put it in ridiculously simplistic terms: mic-level is like trying to listen to a quiet person in a crowded restaurant. Unless you cancel out all that outside interference, it's going to be one awful conversation. Balancing the line does just that; gets rid of the interference.

Edit: as always, the help and advice are much appreciated. Thanks!
User avatar
Christian LeBlanc
Silver Member
 
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:05 pm

Re: line-level to instrument-level and vice-versa

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:53 pm

Christian LeBlanc wrote:Just to make sure I'm getting my theory right: a balanced mic-level signal is way more important (and, therefore, the standard) than a balanced line-level signal, due to electromagnetic interference being more of an issue with the quieter signals that go with mic-level, right?

Or, to put it in ridiculously simplistic terms: mic-level is like trying to listen to a quiet person in a crowded restaurant. Unless you cancel out all that outside interference, it's going to be one awful conversation. Balancing the line does just that; gets rid of the interference.


That's a good piece of insight, however I'd add that the other major factor is distance. In your analogy, even if he was speaking very loudly, given enough distance it wouldn't take too big a crowd to make him impossible to understand. A balanced line is the only way to overcome distance. If you and your friend were close enough the crowd wouldn't matter as much. Makes sense?
"Volume automation takes time. You don't got that kinda time. You could be getting naked with somebody somewhere." -Slipperman

Mathieu Benoit - Fluid Productions
www.fluidaudiogroup.com
www.facebook.com/FluidAudioGroup
User avatar
Mathieu Benoit
Drumwaiter
 
Posts: 4707
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:55 pm
Location: Saint John, New Brunswick

Re: line-level to instrument-level and vice-versa

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:23 pm

Drumwaiter wrote:
Christian LeBlanc wrote:Just to make sure I'm getting my theory right: a balanced mic-level signal is way more important (and, therefore, the standard) than a balanced line-level signal, due to electromagnetic interference being more of an issue with the quieter signals that go with mic-level, right?

Or, to put it in ridiculously simplistic terms: mic-level is like trying to listen to a quiet person in a crowded restaurant. Unless you cancel out all that outside interference, it's going to be one awful conversation. Balancing the line does just that; gets rid of the interference.


That's a good piece of insight, however I'd add that the other major factor is distance. In your analogy, even if he was speaking very loudly, given enough distance it wouldn't take too big a crowd to make him impossible to understand. A balanced line is the only way to overcome distance. If you and your friend were close enough the crowd wouldn't matter as much. Makes sense?
You are correct in saying the signal level is one of the factors in whether or not you need to have a balanced connection. As Matt said, the length of the line, and impedance also play a big part in whether a connection needs to be of the balanced variety.

Just to pick nits... A balanced line isn't the only way to overcome length or "distance" as Matt said. A high enough level to maintain a reasonable S/N ratio can work in an unbalanced line of considerable length.

Length of path, impedance, and signal level that all play a part in the signal VS noise game. Balanced lines are usually better, but not always necessary.
"Once again, it is NEVER the gear that makes a good record.
It just fills Forum pages..." --compasspnt

middleaudio.com
User avatar
Malcolm Boyce
Your Humble Host
 
Posts: 3681
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:07 am
Location: Saint John, NB

Re: line-level to instrument-level and vice-versa

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:03 pm

Fair enough. But how long could one go with an unbalanced +4dBu line before the signal to noise ratio would be unacceptable I wonder? With a balanced line you just don't need to worry about it. We have successfully sent the output of an electric guitar down 1800ft. of balanced line with no noticeable noise. Makes me wonder what the breaking point is for distance at different signal strengths of unbalanced signal.

We have a pair of STDs so we never have to ask the question I suppose.
"Volume automation takes time. You don't got that kinda time. You could be getting naked with somebody somewhere." -Slipperman

Mathieu Benoit - Fluid Productions
www.fluidaudiogroup.com
www.facebook.com/FluidAudioGroup
User avatar
Mathieu Benoit
Drumwaiter
 
Posts: 4707
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:55 pm
Location: Saint John, New Brunswick

Re: line-level to instrument-level and vice-versa

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:15 pm

Drumwaiter wrote:Fair enough. But how long could one go with an unbalanced +4dBu line before the signal to noise ratio would be unacceptable I wonder? With a balanced line you just don't need to worry about it. We have successfully sent the output of an electric guitar down 1800ft. of balanced line with no noticeable noise. Makes me wonder what the breaking point is for distance at different signal strengths of unbalanced signal.
Yeah, and even balanced lines have their limits without some kind of help along the way. I've seen systems guys measuring mathematical substantial loss and noise after just a few hundred feet.
"Once again, it is NEVER the gear that makes a good record.
It just fills Forum pages..." --compasspnt

middleaudio.com
User avatar
Malcolm Boyce
Your Humble Host
 
Posts: 3681
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:07 am
Location: Saint John, NB

Re: line-level to instrument-level and vice-versa

Postby RoadDog » Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:40 pm

ok, so i've come into this in the middle, but which part of synth to pedals to line in jack on the mixer wasn't working? I understand about impedence,levels, balanced vs. unbalanced and S/N , so i am assuming that you did not dig the 'sound'?
A spider wanders aimlessly within the warmth of a shadow....
User avatar
RoadDog
Bronze Member
 
Posts: 154
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:11 am
Location: Rothesay, NB

Re: line-level to instrument-level and vice-versa

Postby Christian LeBlanc » Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:31 pm

RoadDog wrote:ok, so i've come into this in the middle, but which part of synth to pedals to line in jack on the mixer wasn't working? I understand about impedence,levels, balanced vs. unbalanced and S/N , so i am assuming that you did not dig the 'sound'?


What started this all off is that I tried a synth/sequencer into a brand new guitar pedal, and the sequencer output was way too hot for the pedal to handle. The pedal in question was a Boss PS-6 Harmonist pedal, so I really wanted a clean sound out of it before I start dropping the pitch on any given tune by 3 octaves. On its own, the drop sounds amazing, but without the ability to have the song sound clear up until that point, it makes things useless for, say, a live music scenario.

I'll confess that I haven't even tried the effects send/return loop on my mixer yet, but as long as my sequencer distorts going into that PS-6, I'm happy getting a converter made to help everything get along. And I'm looking forward to finally patching together a very flexible home environment. (I brought up the mixer just because my long-term goal is to be able to use my pedal chain as an outboard effect)

So, short answer, yes, the sound wasn't working for me. If I was just trying to distort something, it might not have been that big of an issue, but this particular use I had for it sparked the desire to make my home set-up more adaptable.

Just for fun, I plugged my Moog into the pedal last night in 2-part harmony mode (the Voyager's outs will automatically switch to either line-level or instrument level) and just about melted into a little pile of euphoric goo. As you can guess, rich, dark, complex sounds aren't the best for this pedal, but some sharp, snappy noises just took off into their own.
User avatar
Christian LeBlanc
Silver Member
 
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:05 pm

Re: line-level to instrument-level and vice-versa

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:41 pm

Once again... Getting into the pedals is the tricky part. Getting back into the desk or whatever is relatively easy.
"Once again, it is NEVER the gear that makes a good record.
It just fills Forum pages..." --compasspnt

middleaudio.com
User avatar
Malcolm Boyce
Your Humble Host
 
Posts: 3681
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:07 am
Location: Saint John, NB

Re: line-level to instrument-level and vice-versa

Postby Alain Benoit » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:19 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:
Length of path, impedance, and signal level that all play a part in the signal VS noise game. Balanced lines are usually better, but not always necessary.


So do shielding and draining.
www.fluidaudiogroup.com

"No one has time to do it right, but we all seem to have time to do it twice."
User avatar
Alain Benoit
Self Biased Resistor
 
Posts: 1321
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:21 pm
Location: Canada

Re: line-level to instrument-level and vice-versa

Postby Alain Benoit » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:23 pm

Just to piss everybody off here, the very first time I mixed a live band, high school, I did not even have access to a proper FX unit, so I grabbed the guitar player's unused Boss DM-2 delay, made an insert cable and patched it into the singer's channel, stomping on it at the end of certain phrases.
www.fluidaudiogroup.com

"No one has time to do it right, but we all seem to have time to do it twice."
User avatar
Alain Benoit
Self Biased Resistor
 
Posts: 1321
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:21 pm
Location: Canada

Christian's Big Night Out

Postby Christian LeBlanc » Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:02 am

I had the pleasure of picking up my converter from Alain last night, as well as getting a tour of Fluid Audio from Matt. "Humbled" was how I felt, seeing that much equipment and people who know what they're doing. I'm very happy that such a space, and such people, exist in Saint John.

But getting back to the converter: I was only able to play with it for about 10 minutes this morning (that's what she said!), but it did exactly what I wanted it to. I plugged my sequencer/synth's line out into its line in, the converter's instrument out into the pedal's in, and a cheap pair of headphones into the pedal's output (essentially the same configuration as when I first tried the pedal, less the converter), hit 'play,' and it sounded so smooth. I'd like to record a before and after track of audio with it, as I think that would make for an appropriate cap to this thread.

I was also impressed that he added little latches that, I believe, are meant to help keep the cables from slipping out accidentally. Just a really nice touch.

I also took Alain's earlier advice in this thread and now own a Radial ProD2 direct input (I got the stereo one, just for the extra flexibility). I was able to use it at the Sunstar last night as part of their final Experimental Night: one channel for playing with a vocoder, and the other channel for playing a patchcord into 6 pedals, with the Harmonist at the end of the chain doing lovely things to the sounds of static. I really have to applaud Mike Rogers for providing a place for misfits to play and grow in this city; some styles of "music" wouldn't really work all that well in an open mic setting.

But to reign in my gushing, I just want to give a huge thank you to Alain for making my converter, and to Malcolm for asking him about it in the first place. I can see this being an invaluable part of my set up for both experimental, as well as more traditional signal processing (like using a chain of pedals as an outboard effects rack on my mixer).
User avatar
Christian LeBlanc
Silver Member
 
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:05 pm

Re: line-level to instrument-level and vice-versa

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:25 pm

It's nice when we get stuff done around here. :-)
"Once again, it is NEVER the gear that makes a good record.
It just fills Forum pages..." --compasspnt

middleaudio.com
User avatar
Malcolm Boyce
Your Humble Host
 
Posts: 3681
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:07 am
Location: Saint John, NB

Re: line-level to instrument-level and vice-versa

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:46 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:It's nice when we get stuff done around here. :-)

Oh yeah, we don't just bash music stores and schools... Sometimes we actually like to help people.

I'm glad it worked out for you Christian. If you need anything else, don't be shy.
"Volume automation takes time. You don't got that kinda time. You could be getting naked with somebody somewhere." -Slipperman

Mathieu Benoit - Fluid Productions
www.fluidaudiogroup.com
www.facebook.com/FluidAudioGroup
User avatar
Mathieu Benoit
Drumwaiter
 
Posts: 4707
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:55 pm
Location: Saint John, New Brunswick

Re: line-level to instrument-level and vice-versa

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:48 pm

Drumwaiter wrote:Oh yeah, we don't just bash music stores and schools... Sometimes we actually like to help people.
:-D
"Once again, it is NEVER the gear that makes a good record.
It just fills Forum pages..." --compasspnt

middleaudio.com
User avatar
Malcolm Boyce
Your Humble Host
 
Posts: 3681
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:07 am
Location: Saint John, NB

Re: line-level to instrument-level and vice-versa

Postby Christian LeBlanc » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:10 pm

That should be part of the branding for this forum :)

Also, a MIDI patch bay would be great ;)
User avatar
Christian LeBlanc
Silver Member
 
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:05 pm

Re: line-level to instrument-level and vice-versa

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:20 pm

"Volume automation takes time. You don't got that kinda time. You could be getting naked with somebody somewhere." -Slipperman

Mathieu Benoit - Fluid Productions
www.fluidaudiogroup.com
www.facebook.com/FluidAudioGroup
User avatar
Mathieu Benoit
Drumwaiter
 
Posts: 4707
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:55 pm
Location: Saint John, New Brunswick

Re: line-level to instrument-level and vice-versa

Postby Christian LeBlanc » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:31 pm

Drumwaiter wrote:
Christian LeBlanc wrote:Also, a MIDI patch bay would be great ;)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ENSONIQ-KMX-15x16-MIDI-PATCH-BAY-VINTAGE-/110661268389?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19c3ecf3a5
Done.


They ship US only! I'm never going on this forum again ^^



...this afternoon.
User avatar
Christian LeBlanc
Silver Member
 
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:05 pm

Re: line-level to instrument-level and vice-versa

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:44 pm

Christian LeBlanc wrote:
Drumwaiter wrote:
Christian LeBlanc wrote:Also, a MIDI patch bay would be great ;)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ENSONIQ-KMX-15x16-MIDI-PATCH-BAY-VINTAGE-/110661268389?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19c3ecf3a5
Done.


They ship US only! I'm never going on this forum again ^^



...this afternoon.

Have it shipped to Johnson's True Value Hardware. They accept shipments for Canadians. They charge like 4 bucks I think. Just make it out to my name. I have to go down there in a few weeks to to pick up a cat tower, so I can grab it for you.

Johnson's True Value Hardware
188 North St
Calais, ME 04619
Last edited by Mathieu Benoit on Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Volume automation takes time. You don't got that kinda time. You could be getting naked with somebody somewhere." -Slipperman

Mathieu Benoit - Fluid Productions
www.fluidaudiogroup.com
www.facebook.com/FluidAudioGroup
User avatar
Mathieu Benoit
Drumwaiter
 
Posts: 4707
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:55 pm
Location: Saint John, New Brunswick

Re: line-level to instrument-level and vice-versa

Postby gamblor » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:49 pm

So if I’m planning on re-amping a DI guitar track, do I NEED a re-amp box to do it? Will anything break if I just plug my interface’s output to a guitar amp, or will I just have a poor signal to noise ratio? Not that I’m underestimating the value of S/N, but those re-amp boxes run for 200 bucks and I aint made of 200 dollar bills.
Made of 40 dollar bills
gamblor
Bronze Member
 
Posts: 109
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:10 pm

Re: line-level to instrument-level and vice-versa

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:12 pm

gamblor wrote:So if I’m planning on re-amping a DI guitar track, do I NEED a re-amp box to do it? Will anything break if I just plug my interface’s output to a guitar amp, or will I just have a poor signal to noise ratio? Not that I’m underestimating the value of S/N, but those re-amp boxes run for 200 bucks and I aint made of 200 dollar bills.


Alain just built one for Christian. Are you made of 40 dollar bills though?
Alain Benoit wrote:
Malcolm Boyce wrote:
Christian LeBlanc wrote:Thanks for the replies! Now who wants to sell Christian cheap re-amps ;)
If it doesn't already exist, Al would probably make you a cheap device to go simply from console line out to "pedal" or "amp" in.

Al... Doable, or prohibitively pricey?


$40.
Elegant package though.


Otherwise all the answers to your questions have been discussed in this thread.
"Volume automation takes time. You don't got that kinda time. You could be getting naked with somebody somewhere." -Slipperman

Mathieu Benoit - Fluid Productions
www.fluidaudiogroup.com
www.facebook.com/FluidAudioGroup
User avatar
Mathieu Benoit
Drumwaiter
 
Posts: 4707
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:55 pm
Location: Saint John, New Brunswick

Re: line-level to instrument-level and vice-versa

Postby Christian LeBlanc » Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:29 am

Gamblor: contact Alain asap before he starts charging 200 dollar bills ;) Although you won't break anything by experimenting, Alain's device is ridiculously useful.

Drumwaiter: I may just do that, thanks! (note to self: ends around quarter to 5 tomorrow morning...evil auction sniping-mode, commence!)
User avatar
Christian LeBlanc
Silver Member
 
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:05 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Sounds Good...

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests

cron