2-Bus Compression

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2-Bus Compression

Postby gamblor » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:38 am

I’m going to start by saying that I’m highly familiar with the “loudness wars” and fully agree that this recent trend in AE sucks the life out of otherwise great mixes. That all being said, I’m currently being hired to make a band sound “LOUD” (very specifically requested) for some promotional demos knowing full well that their mixes will never see a mastering engineer. Squashing time!!

The problem I’m having is that the mix is giving off a slight “fluttering” feel during some passages of the songs.. My fx chain on the 2-bus is eq --> comp --> peak limiter --> puke bag. I’m assuming the flutter is coming from the 2-bus comp, since the limiter should be capping anything that could potentially clip.

Is there any golden ticket to what setting I could adjust to remove this effect, while still keeping the mix sounding (un)reasonably loud? Should I just give up and accept that I’ll have to sacrifice a certain degree of clarity in order to achieve the project’s goal?

It’s also possible that I have gone completely crazy and there is actually no “fluttering” happening. I’ve spent a couple late nights trying to polish these guys off, so this is highly possible.

To reiterate, I’m not trying to start a debate on the loudness wars. Just hoping to get tips on how to win!

Here’s a link to one of the songs where this is most prominent. Once again, crazy = a possibility.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14404243/4Unsure%20Mixes/Happily%20Ever%20After.mp3
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Re: 2-Bus Compression

Postby gamblor » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:39 pm

Just for fun, here is another mix from that same session. I worry that I’m coming off negatively toward this artist, but the fact is they’ve been a delight to record and mix! This one is a perfect example of why. Great songwriting and performances all around.

This one is called “Lit” by 4Unsure. The band is comprised of Dan MacLellan on vocals, Dave Smith on bass, Billy Leblanc on guitar and Ryan Ferris on drums.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14404243/4Unsure%20Mixes/Lit.mp3

Not to derail, but I just thought it was necessary to prop these boys up a bit since they’ve been such a pleasure to work with!

Now… tell me how I can safely squash them to death.
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Re: 2-Bus Compression

Postby macrae11 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:04 pm

No 100% sure what the fluttering you're hearing is, but I'm guessing that you're referring to the pumping, which is mostly being cause by the bass, particularly when the low D is played. Controlling the bottom octave of the bass, either with EQ, or maybe multiband compression should clean this up.

However that being said, loudness does not come from mastering, or even two bus processing. At least not good loudness. There's only a certain volume each mix can be pushed to before it starts to fall apart. Having a balanced mix, with the correct balance of mids to bass is the first place to start. Much of loudness is just perception, we hear mid frequencies much more prominently. One of the big reasons I dislike the loudness wars is because after a certain point rich full bass becomes impossible. If I were you I'd go back to the mix, and apply a little more individual compression, and less 2 bus compression. Also drying up the vocals will help them sound more forward, ie loud, without actually increasing the volume.

Just as an example, one of the loudest projects I've ever worked on had zero compression on the mix, and only about 1-2 dB of peak limiting. http://richardpaul.ca/playlists/009_Mor ... rds_01.m3u

That's not the loudest song on the album, but it's the best example that's on his web site.
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Re: 2-Bus Compression

Postby Jef » Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:21 pm

If there are particular bass notes that are problematic, I would agree with Andrew. Using some dynamic (multiband) compression on the bass track tuned to those particular frequencies might help. Here's a chart to help narrow it down for you.
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Re: 2-Bus Compression

Postby gamblor » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:18 pm

I just threw this on my iPod and gave it a spin on the home system. The problem is DEFINITELY with the low bass string. When I revisit the mix I'll address this, amongst a number of other things that I'd like to polish up.

That's interesting Andrew that your "loudest" mix didn't involve any 2 bus compression whatsoever. I think next time I track I'll try to put more emphasis on capturing mids and see where that gets me.
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Re: 2-Bus Compression

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:31 pm

Good "loud" starts with the mix.

One thing I'd consider is, if you're mixing, and you know you're trying to make the final result "loud", either mix through a chain to help maximize the level, or at least audition through it while mixing.

One question I have is, how "loud" is loud enough for you in this case, and how will you know when you get there?

...and yes. Clarity is one of the things you sacrifice when crushing a two mix.
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Re: 2-Bus Compression

Postby macrae11 » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:18 am

gamblor wrote:That's interesting Andrew that your "loudest" mix didn't involve any 2 bus compression whatsoever. I think next time I track I'll try to put more emphasis on capturing mids and see where that gets me.


To be clear I didn't actually mix the album, I recorded, produced and mastered it. Bit of an odd scenario. It was actually mixed in Nashville and it was very ear opening to hear what a mixer of that caliber can pull out of mix and make it in your face, without any 2 bus work at all.
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Re: 2-Bus Compression

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:51 am

macrae11 wrote:
gamblor wrote:That's interesting Andrew that your "loudest" mix didn't involve any 2 bus compression whatsoever. I think next time I track I'll try to put more emphasis on capturing mids and see where that gets me.


To be clear I didn't actually mix the album, I recorded, produced and mastered it. Bit of an odd scenario. It was actually mixed in Nashville and it was very ear opening to hear what a mixer of that caliber can pull out of mix and make it in your face, without any 2 bus work at all.


A loud drummer was also employed... :mrgreen:

In all seriousness though Billy Decker is just sick. Those mixes totally kick my ass. The fact that he likely spent very time on them still amazes me.
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Re: 2-Bus Compression

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:35 am

When it comes to 2 bus compression there are a number of ways to approach it, but any way that you do, it shouldn't be a crutch. You shoul still be able to have a good mix with or without. I read an article by Charles Dye a while back with his views on it. In it he offered 3 methodologies: Do it from the start, from near the end or don't do it at all.

Mix Buss Compression by Charles Dye

For me I've been trying mixing into a compressor a lot lately, previously though I usually always added it near the end. When I started I had no concept of 2 bus compression so I didn't even apply any until years later. Either way I judge my approach case by case. The last project I did, I mixed it as far as I could and then applied compression at the end. Since the arrangement was supposed to be rather dynamic, I was careful with the compression because I wanted to make sure the climax of the song really stood out.

I'm finally getting to the point in my mixes though where I'm more about automation than anything else. I'm using compression on individual channels for tone, letting the automation do most of the heavy lifting and using compression across the 2 bus to make up for the fact that I can't yet make them as big as a guy like Billy decker without compressing the 2 bus at least some. That being said, I've only been at this for like 4 years, so I'm going to cut myself some slack. I watch Andrew like a hawk though... Which is probably the only reason I've learned as much as I have in the very short amount of time I've been doing this.
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Re: 2-Bus Compression

Postby gamblor » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:53 am

From reading a few of the responses in this thread, the best thing for my development and learning might be to just wipe the board clean and start over from scratch. I’ve got nothing to lose, since the band is overwhelmingly happy with the current mixes considering this was intended to just be a quick and dirty jam-room recording.

As Malcolm suggested in his post, I have been mixing through the comp throughout this whole process. It might do me good to start over and see how I approach the mix differently without the compressor on the output. To answer your question of “how loud is loud enough”…. Nickelback. Keep in mind, I try to be extremely up front with bands regarding what quality can be expected from me, and what (little) experience I bring to the table. I don’t think anybody actually expects anything close to a Nickelback caliber mix from me, but nonetheless this is the sound the band strives for and it’s the template I’ve been instructed to work off of. However, this is likely a fruitless endeavor on this particular assignment since Nickelback layers the shit out of their recordings, and here I am working with whatever I took off the floor that night.

You know, the deeper I get into the pro-audio world the more I realize I’ve got an incredibly long way to go. It’s slightly overwhelming when you start REALLY getting into it.
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Re: 2-Bus Compression

Postby Christian LeBlanc » Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:01 am

gamblor wrote:You know, the deeper I get into the pro-audio world the more I realize I’ve got an incredibly long way to go. It’s slightly overwhelming when you start REALLY getting into it.

Jeebus, yes.
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Re: 2-Bus Compression

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:46 am

gamblor wrote:You know, the deeper I get into the pro-audio world the more I realize I’ve got an incredibly long way to go. It’s slightly overwhelming when you start REALLY getting into it.


I totally hear you on that.

Let's say you are enjoying a beatiful day at the beach. The water looks calm extended out onto the beach on a hot sunny day. Then you put your goggles on and stick your head under the water only to realize it's 4 miles deep and filled with shipwrecks of people who underestimated the journey they were about to embark in. You look at a canoe and go out 50 feet into the ocean and says, "this ain't bad, there's nothing to this!" You head out for about a miles or so and start to worry because he can't see the land anymore. Then a big ship comes by and the captain invites you on board and after a while you see the captain easily sailing the ocean and think, "this ain't bad, there's nothing to this!" Then the captain dies of scurvy and the 1st mate is nowhere to be found. You take the helm and at first you think you might have this covered. But eventually a storm comes around and then you panik because you don't know what to do and everyone's counting on you to get through this. The bigger the boat you are in certainly helps (If you were in a canoe you'd be dead by now,) but if you are going deep into the ocean no vessel will save you from the sea without having the skills to back it up. You survive the storm but barely. The ship has sustained heavy damage that will takes a while to repair, but you fix the ship and move on. Years later after you've weathered many storms your skills are sharp and you've become the captain of your own ship. You've grown increasingly confident in your ability. You've become a fine captain, but every new storm will present it's own new sets of challenges, you'll never master the sea as it always has the ability to throw you off. You then realize that it's that excitement that you love about sailing.

I never really wanted to get into recording though, I was content in letting Andrew do his thing but watching him work and my own curiosity got me to jump right in. Ideally I'd be Andrew's assistant forever, but honestly it's the time away from him that really pushes me to do better. I pushes me to apply the things I've been learning from him. I'm still very much in the learn stage though. It's easy to tell because I focus primarily on one technique at a time but that is starting to change day by day. It's as if I'm in his ship and he takes leaves all the time but he's just a phone call away if a storm comes up. He always comes back though, otherwise I'd have jumped ship a while back.

PS - Yarrrr! ;-)
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Re: 2-Bus Compression

Postby macrae11 » Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:25 am

Can we now make every thread nautical themed?
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Re: 2-Bus Compression

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:38 am

macrae11 wrote:Can we now make every thread nautical themed?


Speaking of nautical themes... I've been listening to this again lately:

Image

The production on this album is killer! You should listen to it some time. It's a concept album based on 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea. It may give the much need context to my previous post.
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Re: 2-Bus Compression

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:45 pm

OK. So I listened to "Happily Ever After" to hear what you are doing. The low end, including the bass drum are collapsing the compression to the point where it is ducking the rest of the mix. It sounds like you are trying to keep the mix "dynamic" while going for "loud" as well. Using that Nickelband as your benchmark, dynamic isn't at all what they're about. What kind of release time do you have on any compression/limiting on the mix bus?

I'll bet if you print your mix without any compression or limiting the bass drum and bass will be huge in relation to the rest of everything. I'd love to hear it. I think this is what Andrew was getting at, which is getting everything up and together sounding with relation to one another and the amount of gain reduction you'll need for "loud" will be minimal.

Maybe I'm crazy, but that clip isn't very "loud" at all. Unfortunately in this case, that isn't a compliment.

I take back what I said about monitoring through the compression. Get it together without all that, and then audition it through that chain until you get it happy. Don't lose touch with the mix itself being full and "loud" first. I'll bet if you listen to Randy Staub or Shipley's mixes of that band, it's pretty "loud" before it gets to mastering.
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Re: 2-Bus Compression

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:34 pm

Can we hear those clips without any 2 bus compression? I'm just not thinking it's the compression on the 2 bus that's your biggest concern here.

I agree with Malcolm and Andrew though that the kick and bass are killing things here. I don't necessarily think it would take too much to time come up with a better rough of that song though. The individual tones aren't bad really, aside from what's already been mentioned the vocals do need to be way more "in your face" personally I'd compress the crap out of those and like Andrew said back off the verb to bring it closer. Try having fun with some delays there too. Also I'd say the snare should be more present but that's gonna be tough with the performance you have there. That's where sample enhancements would be a good time. I'm hearing more of a rimshot sound for this kind of tune. But I'm a drummer... facepalm

But really aside from a few obvious things it's really not a bad effort in my opinion. I just sounds like the bass player mixed it. Try mixing it instead like you were a singing drummer. ;-)
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Re: 2-Bus Compression

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:29 am

Something that I think Matt has touched is not all recordings are going to give you the end result you may be looking for. Everything about those Nickelband tracks is done with the intent of them sounding that way in the end. I'm sure that if most of us had the multitracks of those tunes, it would be far easier to get something resembling "loud" than taking something less suitable for the tone and trying to shape it to be that.

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Re: 2-Bus Compression

Postby macrae11 » Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:52 am

Malcolm Boyce wrote:As always, the secret to great mixes is great recordings.

And I'll add, great arrangements.
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Re: 2-Bus Compression

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:28 am

Malcolm Boyce wrote:Something that I think Matt has touched is not all recordings are going to give you the end result you may be looking for. Everything about those Nickelband tracks is done with the intent of them sounding that way in the end. I'm sure that if most of us had the multitracks of those tunes, it would be far easier to get something resembling "loud" than taking something less suitable for the tone and trying to shape it to be that.

As always, the secret to great mixes is great recordings.


Quoted for emphasis. The biggest thing I've learned from assisting Andrew is that you have to have the endgame in mind every step of the way. Also you have to know what will get you there and that's where experience comes in. That's where you know which snare to use, which guitar going through which amp and which combination of mic and preamp, ect. Getting the recording right makes the mix 1000 times easier.

But long before that I usually take the time to work out the preproduction with my clients to make sure that the arrangements aren't arbitrary. Of course I don't always have the option of doing this, and sometimes the clients already have their preproduction worked out, but the song and the arrangements are crucial.

The whole process including the writing/arranging, the performance/recording and the mixing/mastering have to be based on an incredible amount of foresight.

That all being said, I think in this case you should work with what you have and make the most of it. Take this recording and push it as far as you can. Then try again next time and be meticulous in every step and see what that gets you. It's a game of observing the results and then doing what works based on those results.
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Re: 2-Bus Compression

Postby gamblor » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:30 pm

Thank you everybody for all of the great feedback. As a couple of people had recommended, I decided to use a multiband compressor on the bass track to isolate my problem frequency and reduce its presence in the mix. Doing this went a long way to saving the mix. Things sound much more balanced and dynamic, but still "loud-ish" just from this one small change. I also backed off on the mix compression by quite a bit. Initially my threshold was so low that the compressor was constantly active, so I backed the threshold off and tightened the knee up quite significantly so that the compressor would return to 0db gain reduction a few times per measure of the song. Only other big change I made was drying up the vocals. In the original mix they were compressed like crazy, but they were so echoey that the compression wasn’t being allowed to do its job.

I’ve posted a new mix of this song at the link below. Everything is final except for some of the quieter vocals at the start. We’re going to overdub those because there is too much room bleed in relation to the volume of his voice. I’ll post one later in the week with zero mix compression just for fun.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14404243/4Unsure%20Mixes/Happily%20Ever%20After%20mix2.mp3

One question I have is how did everybody know that multiband compression was the answer to the bass problem I was having? My gut instinct upon deciding that the bass was too heavy would be to eq it. Instead I decided to go with multiband compression per everybody’s recommendation. The end result is certainly what I was looking for, but for future reference how should I go about deciding which tool to use for correcting problem frequencies?
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Re: 2-Bus Compression

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:06 pm

gamblor wrote: Only other big change I made was drying up the vocals. In the original mix they were compressed like crazy, but they were so echoey that the compression wasn’t being allowed to do its job.

OK, then now I have a question. How did you add the verb on the vocals? Did you have it as an insert or did you set up dedicated aux send for reverb? The reason I'm asking is that if your vocal reverb is going into your compressor, that might not give you the flexibilty you want in each department.

gamblor wrote:I’ve posted a new mix of this song at the link below. Everything is final except for some of the quieter vocals at the start. We’re going to overdub those because there is too much room bleed in relation to the volume of his voice. I’ll post one later in the week with zero mix compression just for fun.

I know Danny isn't a quiet singer so I'm curious as to how far away he was from the mic during the performance? Also you may want to dampen your vocal room if you are finding that the sound of the room isn't helping you acheive the desired result.

gamblor wrote:One question I have is how did everybody know that multiband compression was the answer to the bass problem I was having? My gut instinct upon deciding that the bass was too heavy would be to eq it. Instead I decided to go with multiband compression per everybody’s recommendation. The end result is certainly what I was looking for, but for future reference how should I go about deciding which tool to use for correcting problem frequencies?

Being a person that didn't actually recommend that, I'd say that there was likely more than one solution in that case. If the multiband compressor worked that's great and there was no doubt in my mind that it could do the trick, but you might have tried something else that would have work just as well by trying out various things. Just keep trying things out that you think would work until something does. That's what I do, and then from time to time Andrew or Alain will say "Oh you could do this instead and save yourself some time."

The main goal is to find the way to get the job done in the fewest amount of steps while saving the most amount of time. There are always going to be several ways to acheive a particular goal, but there's usually a method or two that will get you there more efficiently.
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Re: 2-Bus Compression

Postby gamblor » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:45 pm

OK, then now I have a question. How did you add the verb on the vocals?


I set up an aux send for reverb. I sent from the vocals, and a bit from the snare and kick. To answer your question, there was no reverb going into the compressor. To clarify what I meant by the compressor not doing its job, I had wanted it to bring the singer out front but I applied so much reverb that it moved him further back than he was to begin with.

I know Danny isn't a quiet singer so I'm curious as to how far away he was from the mic during the performance? Also you may want to dampen your vocal room if you are finding that the sound of the room isn't helping you acheive the desired result.


Dan was actually singing fairly closely (mic was a sennheiser 421 with the bass roll-off switch back by one notch). This was something I communicated to him right from the start of the session, since we had him in the same room as the band and I knew bleed was going to become an issue. The thing I find with Danny is that he’s one of the loudest singers I’ve ever heard when he’s projecting, but there is a huge volume drop when he’s singing a quiet part. Unfortunately, the room situation didn’t lend well to the quiet parts since I had to move his fader up a lot in the mix to make him audible. This really isn’t knocking Danny either. It’s just his style and I should’ve kept that in mind when I was setting up the session.

It’s one of those things though where they just wanted me capturing what I could from their jam night. I considered asking him to go into a different room but I didn’t want to impose to many parameters for fear of being intrusive. I think in a future project of this nature, despite the casualness of recording off the floor during a jam session I’ll still insist on greater vocal isolation.
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Re: 2-Bus Compression

Postby Jef » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:10 pm

gamblor wrote:I’ve posted a new mix of this song..

Yes, comparing the two mixes, you did manage to get the vocal more up front. You may have over-done it a bit on the bass though. It seems to have lost a lot of its presence during the process. You realize, of course, that when you are cutting frequencies either with an eq or multi-band compressor, it also reduces the over-all level of that track. You should then bring the level of that track back up some to compensate (usually can be done on the signal processing device itself).

Using this approach on other tracks that need it will also help in the process of getting a 'louder' mix. Also watch out for over-lapping frequencies from different instruments. For instance, sometimes if a guitar has a lot of bottom end, it will compound those frequencies when mixed with the bass. If you can reduce the amount of tones that overlap, it will go a long way in helping you achieve 'loudness'.


gamblor wrote:One question I have is how did everybody know that multiband compression was the answer to the bass problem I was having? My gut instinct upon deciding that the bass was too heavy would be to eq it. Instead I decided to go with multiband compression per everybody’s recommendation. The end result is certainly what I was looking for, but for future reference how should I go about deciding which tool to use for correcting problem frequencies?

Multiband compressor? I put that sh** on everything! :roll:
...but really, to answer your question, it's all about knowledge and experience. Some of us old timers have ran into similar scenarios and have had to ask all the same questions you are asking now. Like Matt said, try things out and see what they do. There's no better way to gain knowledge than actual hands-on trial and error. And, as always, posting your questions here will usually get some satisfactory results.
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Re: 2-Bus Compression

Postby macrae11 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:20 pm

In this particular instance I probably would have tried a low shelf EQ first, but multiband compression can achieve the same results. I'll typically grab an EQ first because it's generally faster, easier on the processor, and has a much lower chance of royally screwing something else up unintentionally. I'll usually only go to multiband if there's a more serious issue than can be easily solved with EQ.

I curious as to your compressor settings. You say vocals were compressed like crazy, but what does that mean to you? Crazy to one person might be downright moderate to someone else. Also on the mix bus you mentioned that you changed it so that it wasn't always compressing, but often when I do compress the 2 bus, it'll be constantly moving, but just at very low amounts, usually less than 2 dB. I'll often have a very low threshold, but also a very low ratio, sometimes as low as 1.1:1, so you never hear the compression kick in, but it's always doing a little something. Often going with a harder knee, faster attack/release, even at lower compression settings will be more audible.
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Re: 2-Bus Compression

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:02 pm

That second version sounds 100X better to me, and it has less to do with anything bass specific and more about how you treated the compression, which is what this thread is titled coincidentally. Most of the "loud" in anything I do like that is from the mix first, and then some limiting to take out transients. I rarely use any "compression" per say, and If I do, more like what Andrew said in the 1-2:1 ratio area, which is certainly not about loudness. The heavy lifting is in the mix most definitely.

The good news is, if that is "loud" enough for you, you're still not in the Nickleband category. Maybe you just like good sound too much to do that to it... ;-)

About the Bass Gtr. There was nothing about that sound which screamed "Multiband Compressor" to me. In fact, of all the places I might use one, Bass Gtr is one of the least likely that multiband dynamics will get used unless something is terribly wrong with the source. Bass, at times, will see a ton of compression from me, but usually in a chain of two in series, and not with anything multiband.
"Once again, it is NEVER the gear that makes a good record.
It just fills Forum pages..." --compasspnt

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