Recording Acoustic Guitar

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Recording Acoustic Guitar

Postby Christian LeBlanc » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:17 am

Any tips/tricks/secrets to share? My Dad recently surprised me with a Yamaha CPX-5 VS acoustic/electric, which I've been strumming happily since I got it. I'm just getting around to experimenting with recording it, and could sure use some advice.

I have recorded a rough little demo with it. If you decide to listen, keep in mind the following:
- I recorded two takes of guitar: one plugged in direct, the other mic'd with a Shure SM-58 sitting on my computer desk.
- Each take was in stereo, and I panned the direct mostly to the left, and the mic'd mostly to the right.
- I'm not using a pick, but just strumming with the side of my thumb.
- I used a bit of DAW reverb on each stereo track of guitar, but no eq (other than a touch of it when I recorded the direct take)

- My first time using Cubase LE4, so I felt like I was flying blind, recording it (moog bits sounded alright w/headphones on, but terrible and loud through my wife's laptop speakers)
- vocals are just placeholder mumblings, I'm still getting used to chording on an acoustic, etc. etc.

So how about it? Any general advice anyone wants to share? If you listen to the tune, what rookie mistakes stand out the most? (other than each take playing slightly different rhythms...I told you it was a rough demo ;-) )
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Re: Recording Acoustic Guitar

Postby macrae11 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:41 pm

Any chance of hearing without the DI track? The DI actually sounds not to bad, but I wouldn't normally use the DI for recording. The mic track sounds a bit muffled, maybe like the mic was positioned right in front of the sound hole, but again it's hard to tell with the DI track.
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Re: Recording Acoustic Guitar

Postby Christian LeBlanc » Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:51 pm

I'll separate them tonight...actually, maybe 30 seconds of DI, 30 seconds of mic, to compare and contrast. You're spot-on about the mic placement; I just learned this morning where the 'sweet spot' actually is (12th fret), and that the sound-hole is a beginner's "mistake" (quotes, because sometimes you'd want that sound, right?). I think I had to boost the volume of the mic track as well, since the thumb-strumming is so quiet compared to picking. Much appreciated, Andrew!
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Re: Recording Acoustic Guitar

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:33 pm

There no one's opinions I value more than Andrew's for acoustic guitar recording. He's done enough of it at a high enough level that I'd almost say it's his specialty.
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Re: Recording Acoustic Guitar

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:45 pm

It is so much easier to mic an acoustic gtr if you can put your head in front of it and hear where the good stuff is coming from. Otherwise it's unlimited trial and error until you get what you want.

I rarely like mixed or blended direct/miced acou gtr sounds. It's usually one or the other for me. This includes newer "pickup" systems that do this kind of thing on board. The two elements usually sound great, and then when mixed... Eeeek.

Methinks Christian needs to get his first halfway decent condenser mic since he's traveling further down this road to audio ecstasy. ;-)
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Re: Recording Acoustic Guitar

Postby clinton » Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:54 pm

Fun! Mic placement for acoustic guitar depends on the guitar itself. Generally, on my dreadnaughts, I'll place the mic between the 12th and 14th fret about five inches away from the guitar at an angle more towards the headstock. I find this compensates for the boominess of the bass in a dread and let's the high ring without being too tinny. I use a Rode NT-3.

When recording my smaller body acoustics, I tend to move more towards the soundhole and on my silk n' steel folk guitar, I mic it at the bridge.

Chris Fudge gets amazing acoustic guitar tones by using two mics with one placed directly behind the guitarist above their head. I swear to God, it's the nicest acoustic guitar tone I've ever heard. He and Marc Goseelin got some amazing results with some weird pattern for Chris' solo record too. He'd have to chime in on that.

Basically, my point is, play around with placement, even minor adjustments will sound major under the microscope. Get a decent mic too, a 58 is okay but not really what you want to capture acoustic instruments.

Hope that helped some....
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Re: Recording Acoustic Guitar

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:21 pm

clinton wrote:Chris Fudge gets amazing acoustic guitar tones by using two mics with one placed directly behind the guitarist above their head. I swear to God, it's the nicest acoustic guitar tone I've ever heard.
This supremely dependent on a space that sounds like something pleasant.
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Re: Recording Acoustic Guitar

Postby Christian LeBlanc » Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:56 pm

These are really helpful tips, guys, I appreciate it!

Malcolm Boyce wrote:Methinks Christian needs to get his first halfway decent condenser mic since he's traveling further down this road to audio ecstasy. ;-)


I'll admit that in spending gobs of money every so often, it doesn't hurt as much. So long as I never stop to think about total investment, I'm fine. It's kind of like climbing a steep cliff; just don't look down :mrgreen:

So what are everyone's opinions on thumb strumming vs using a pick? I like the soft attack a lot more, but I can see where it makes recording a bit tricky, in terms of volume. Should I just keep working at my picking until it sounds better? Or will a good condenser designed with acoustic guitars in mind not care so much about the lack of volume?

I'm interested in the NT3 now. About.com recommends the Oktava MC012, the Marshall MXL 603S, or Groove Tubes GT55, but what are your thoughts? I'm looking for something in the $100 - $300 dollar range (I'd say $200, but I just looked up some of these mics on ebay). I'm also liking the idea of using a new 2nd mic in tandem with my 58 to produce a nicer stereo sound (even if the 58 is not ideal), so that's something to look forward to.

Of course, maybe the DI sound by itself will do...but that's no fun at all ;)
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Re: Recording Acoustic Guitar

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:06 pm

Christian LeBlanc wrote:I'm interested in the NT3 now.
Look at the M3 as well. Both good choices for a starting point, but the NT3 is priced more in their "studio" series.

Christian LeBlanc wrote:I'm also liking the idea of using a new 2nd mic in tandem with my 58 to produce a nicer stereo sound (even if the 58 is not ideal), so that's something to look forward to.
As soon as you listen to an SM58 and something like an NT3 on the same source, you'll understand more than ever how different mics are. :-D
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Re: Recording Acoustic Guitar

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:19 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:I rarely like mixed or blended direct/miced acou gtr sounds. It's usually one or the other for me. This includes newer "pickup" systems that do this kind of thing on board. The two elements usually sound great, and then when mixed... Eeeek.

Amen.

Malcolm Boyce wrote:Methinks Christian needs to get his first halfway decent condenser mic since he's traveling further down this road to audio ecstasy. ;-)

Lately at our shop Andrew has been using a combination of the Lawson L251 and the A-T 4051. The 4051 pretty much lives on acoustic here.
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Re: Recording Acoustic Guitar

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:51 pm

Not to divert attention away from this forum, but there's a pretty detailed thread about this on another forum I frequent.

http://thewombforums.com/showthread.php?t=87

I just read through this thread again and it's pretty well written with a lot of good solid information.

My favorite post though comes from Slipperman. That guys never ceases to crack me up. For those not aquainted with Slipperman, he's pretty much the authority on recording distorted guitars and a smartass to boot.

Slipperman wrote:I have heard rumors of these "ampless guitars" being used on records but have never seen it done personally.

Are they in any way related to those "bonfire starters" I have employed for years with great effectivity?

One question though...

Why do they bother with the strings and tuning pegs on the torch handle?

I know the hollow wooden cavity is where you put the various accelerants... but I never got the purpose of the steel or nylon wires you usually see attached. They always come snapping off after the unit is full engulfed.

No matter. Nothing gets a really big fire going like a D-28 filled with nitromethene and thermite.

SM.
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Re: Recording Acoustic Guitar

Postby Alain Benoit » Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:56 pm

Thermite you say!
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Re: Recording Acoustic Guitar

Postby Christian LeBlanc » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:16 pm

Ok, this paints a better picture of things. You all could have guessed the results, but here it is (I've removed reverb from these as well):

Direct input: http://soundcloud.com/christianleblanc/ ... -no-reverb
SM58, soundhole: http://soundcloud.com/christianleblanc/ ... -no-reverb
SM58, 12th fret: http://soundcloud.com/christianleblanc/114-12th-fret

Now, with the mic, I was not able to get enough volume out of the guitar without a pick, so I had to normalize the track to boost the level, hence the hiss on both takes. That being said, the soundhole take is muddy, while the 12th fret take is much better. However, since the mic was not picking up enough volume for me to even hear with headphones, I was unable to even try for a sweet spot. Direct input wins by default, but I'd like to see a rematch against a more appropriate mic.

Also, I take back what I said earlier about pairing the SM58 with a different mic for a stereo recording; not gonna happen, at least not with soft thrumming.
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Re: Recording Acoustic Guitar

Postby RoadDog » Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:40 am

clinton wrote:Chris Fudge gets amazing acoustic guitar tones by using two mics with one placed directly behind the guitarist above their head. I swear to God, it's the nicest acoustic guitar tone I've ever heard.


I was once tracking a very nice large body Martin, many many moons ago, the thing is we had a matched set of KM 84s at the 12th fret and near the bridge. Here's the thing though, the assistant had made a wonderful mistake and what I thought was the neck 84 was actually an AKG 460 ULS about three feet away directly in front of the guitar about a foot off the deck ... pointed directly at the...HARDWOOD FLOOR.
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Re: Recording Acoustic Guitar

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:02 am

Christian LeBlanc wrote:Now, with the mic, I was not able to get enough volume out of the guitar without a pick, so I had to normalize the track to boost the level, hence the hiss on both takes.

If that's what it took to bring the level up, I'd look at going back and retracking with a preamp/mic combination that can get you more clean gain. The amount of hiss is pretty distracting. Gain staging is just as important as where you put your mic.

RoadDog wrote:Here's the thing though, the assistant had made a wonderful mistake and what I thought was the neck 84 was actually an AKG 460 ULS about three feet away directly in front of the guitar about a foot off the deck ... pointed directly at the...HARDWOOD FLOOR.

Haha... I wish my assistant made mistakes like that.
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Re: Recording Acoustic Guitar

Postby Christian LeBlanc » Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:53 am

Mathieu Benoit wrote:I'd look at going back and retracking with a preamp/mic combination that can get you more clean gain. The amount of hiss is pretty distracting. Gain staging is just as important as where you put your mic.

I agree. I still haven't taken the time to get my USB mic interface working correctly (instead of recording audio via USB, I plug my SM58 into the front and run RCA cables from the outputs into my soundcard...works alright for home-use on vocals, but I'd like to leave a better impression if I want someone to listen in on a work-in-process). Barring that, I'll try out a few more things at home (like trying out the preamp/gain on my mixing board). It'd be nice to hear the difference mic placement makes as I'm playing, not after normalization :-? I'll take a further look through that forum you shared, as I'm sure it's come up.
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Re: Recording Acoustic Guitar

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:02 pm

Christian LeBlanc wrote: I'll take a further look through that forum you shared, as I'm sure it's come up.

If you got a really solid preamp that has a lot of clean gain then you just have to find a microphone that will do a good enough job.

Oh, and then you have to get it into your computer... :mrgreen:
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Re: Recording Acoustic Guitar

Postby Christian LeBlanc » Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:42 pm

Mathieu Benoit wrote:If you got a really solid preamp that has a lot of clean gain then you just have to find a microphone that will do a good enough job.


Do you think I'm made of $40 bills or something? ;-)
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Re: Recording Acoustic Guitar

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:30 pm

As far a mics go that is a pretty great bang for your buck. You'll probably use it on anything and everything and be happy.

I was going to continue with a joke but then I thought Malcolm will probably censor it. C'est la vie....
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Re: Recording Acoustic Guitar

Postby macrae11 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:48 pm

Finally got to a place with speakers so I could listen to the tracks. Everyone's given some great tips already, but I'll just put my two cents in. First off a new mic is definitely in order. Of the ones you listed, I prefer the MC012 over the NT3, and I have no experience with the Groove Tubes. Matt's suggestion is good too, as is the 4051, if you can swing some extra cash. I think before you go buying another preamp, you should correct all your gain staging issues first, as not fixing them will severely diminish the good preamp. You're using a little Yamaha mixer correct? Getting your converters set up properly going in through USB and getting good levels on the board will make a vast improvement in your S/N ratio. A new mic with a nice hot output will help this too. Also I question if the RCA out to soundcard in might be causing some level issues, impedance mismatches etc.

In regards to the picking vs thumb, I won't make a value judgment of one over the other, but I will say, you really should be able to do both. Learning to play well with a pick will give you much more versatility, that playing with the thumb alone cannot achieve. Likewise there are some tones that are pretty much impossible to get with a pick, that the thumb excels at. A good condenser won't make playing with a thumb sound like playing with a pick, it will just make playing with a thumb sound better. Also playing with a pick will further stack the odds in your favor re: S/N ratio.

Also as has been hinted, the room plays a huge role in the sound of an acoustic. Far more than vocals. Once the above issues have been rectified, having a look at the room acoustics would be a good idea. It's never a bad idea.

I would stick to mono for now if I were you. Keep it simple, master that, and then if you find you're lacking in some way try adding another mic. Probably about 70% of my acoustics are mono, and if it's a dense mix a lot of times the times I mic in stereo I only end up using one of the channels.
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Re: Recording Acoustic Guitar

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:04 pm

For people that I know will probably only ever buy a few new microphones, as hard as it is, I try to suggest things they won't eventually want to get rid of.

I would more likely suggest the KSM137 as most will not end up using the Omni setting, and the price is enough to make a difference to someone like Christian. You would never outgrow the 137 or 141... ever.

That all being said, there are plenty of lower cost options that Christian would hear a substantial improvement over using an SM58 for acoustic guitar.
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Re: Recording Acoustic Guitar

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:15 pm

macrae11 wrote:I would stick to mono for now if I were you. Keep it simple, master that, and then if you find you're lacking in some way try adding another mic. Probably about 70% of my acoustics are mono, and if it's a dense mix a lot of times the times I mic in stereo I only end up using one of the channels.
All this.

I have had many artists demand a "stereo" setup for acoustic guitars, only to find out it doesn't work and we end up doing the same thing... Picking one of the two mics and making it happen.

That being said, sometimes a great wide stereo track is exactly what the doctor ordered.

To start out, get a great sound first, then worry about "stereo".

So, Andrew. If you were micing up an acoustic for ODs, and decided on using one mic, would it most likely be an LDC, SDC or something else, and most likely what pattern?
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Re: Recording Acoustic Guitar

Postby Christian LeBlanc » Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:16 pm

Thanks for the mic tips, all - and I appreciate all suggestions, too; just because a mic and/or preamp may be out of my current price range doesn't mean I won't look at it later, or someone else reading this thread may take a look, etc etc. At worst, giving me something to compare lesser mics to helps.
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Re: Recording Acoustic Guitar

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:21 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:I would more likely suggest the KSM137 as most will not end up using the Omni setting, and the price is enough to make a difference to someone like Christian. You would never outgrow the 137 or 141... ever.

Good point, the 137 is probably a better idea. I didn't realize the price difference was so huge. He certainly won't outgrow it though, it's not that kind of mic. $300 for a great swiss army mic is not a bad investment.
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Re: Recording Acoustic Guitar

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:23 pm

As Andrew suggested, make sure you double check your gain staging to maximize what you are doing with what you already have. Looking at mics is fun to think about, but it is just too easy to say "it's as good as it will get without a better mic" without actually making the best out of what you using in front of you.
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