Isolation Cabinets

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Isolation Cabinets

Postby Christian LeBlanc » Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:04 pm

I just found out about these today:
http://www.randallamplifiers.com/Cabine ... ation.html
http://www.jlhproducts.com/axetrak/

The write-ups on these make it sound like they're designed for professional use, but my guess is that these things are marketed towards home-musicians who have some anxiety about needing to record loud, and not wanting to trust amp/cab sims.

It sounds like a neat idea, but I can only imagine how limiting this is on a person's tone. Sure, stick an SM57 in the box right near the cone, but how does it make up for not being able to place a large-diaphragm condenser a bit further away to help capture what a close dynamic can't?

Anyway, I just wanted to throw this out there and see what you guys thought about them.
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Re: Isolation Cabinets

Postby Scott DeVarenne » Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:23 pm

I have no experience with either, but, stay away from that Axe Trak thing. I see that they have other models with 12" speakers(facing out/ not isolated) and the isolation rig built inside. It seems that they all have a special cardioid dynamic microphone cartridge micing a 6-6.5" speaker. You never know, you may get some sounds that you like out of it, but I think the Randall deal looks better. The microphone aspect of it seems superior for obvious reasons. I would see if Randall has anything to say regarding using other 12" speakers. The port is a variable that I think would require some experimentation. If you were micing the edge of the speaker, how different would it sound if the mic was at the edge closest to the port or furthest away? Also, I wonder about resonance of the cabinet. I think any cabinet is going to have a frequency that is emphasized, but can it become an issue when the speaker and mic are enclosed(?).
This thing is still going to make some noise. If you want to get that speaker cooking, a box lined with foam is not going to magically make the energy disappear.
I think a layer of concrete or maybe even granite would increase isolation and perhaps reduce resonance.
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Re: Isolation Cabinets

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:25 am

I can't speak on any commercial products like those above, but I have enclosed many cabinets to control bleed using many different gobos of all different types. It really depends on the level, and the amount/type of bleed you are trying to control. As well, many times I am trying to control the amount of bleed into the cabinet mic, as I am the other way around. I imagine some purpose built rigs would be a welcome change from building makeshift boxes for whatever situation you find yourself in. They may seem to be geared toward "home musicians" but it would most certainly be an appropriate solution in many "professional" environments.

As for the question about the close micing aspect of these kind of setups... 99.9% of the time, regardless of the microphone, when I mic a cab it will be more or less right on the driver. Any room or "distant" micing would be limited to ODs where bleed would never be a problem. Many folks I'm a fan of favour this kind of mic placement, and the majority of setups I've seen certainly were on the close miced end of things. I find for a meat and potatoes tone, the more people try to get a space involved, the further they get away from the actual tone of the cabinet. It has always seemed to be a rookie mistake to me. YMMV

On a related note, this little product from Radial intrigues me: http://www.radialeng.com/r2011/jdx.php Haven't tried one yet, but it looks interesting.
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Re: Isolation Cabinets

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:51 am

Scott DeVarenne wrote:If you want to get that speaker cooking, a box lined with foam is not going to magically make the energy disappear.
I think a layer of concrete or maybe even granite would increase isolation and perhaps reduce resonance.
"Foam" will in fact make much of the energy "disappear" in a sense.... At least the audible energy. The issue becomes which frequencies it absorbs and which it allows to pass. This is why a combination of materials or a broadband absorber is best when trying to prevent the creation and buildup of reflections into the miced sound.

You have to remember the concept is two fold. First is preventing the transmission of the cabinet's racket outside of it's locale. Secondly is not negatively impacting the sound at the position of the microphone(s). An enclosure that impedes transmission of sound through it, hopefully an even balance of frequencies, and as well absorbs a nice balance of the audio band inside. In a close micing situation, it would require some pretty substantial reflection back into the box and/or "resonance" to severely mess up what the microphone hears. This is of course compounded in multi driver cabs.... but proximity is a major factor in the mic focusing on the driver and ignoring the bad stuff.
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Re: Isolation Cabinets

Postby Christian LeBlanc » Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:54 am

Malcolm Boyce wrote:99.9% of the time, regardless of the microphone, when I mic a cab it will be more or less right on the driver.
I never meant to dispute that placement; just that this enclosure precludes placing a second additional mic a bit further away. "Conventional wisdom" - that is, nothing except a lot of web research on my part, so full apologies for talking about what I don't have practical experience with - leads me to understand that a large diaphragm condenser mic placed further away from the amp, in addition to a dynamic right against the grill, helps round out the tone for recording. While I also understand that in this particular setup, the dynamic is far more important than the condenser, the isolation cab takes that second mic away.

http://www.rivera.com/index.php/products/cabinets/150 These guys claim to have solved some air flow issues, for anyone curious about these isolation cabs.

That Radial has me interested, though! There's a slightly different build of it here, too: http://www.radialeng.com/r2011/jdx500.php
These Radials look great for consistent tone, but because of the amp and cab involvement, am I right in guessing that there would still be high levels of volume involved? Presumably, if someone preferred how their tube amp sounded at 7, would the cab still be producing those high volumes?
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Re: Isolation Cabinets

Postby Scott DeVarenne » Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:01 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:
Scott DeVarenne wrote:If you want to get that speaker cooking, a box lined with foam is not going to magically make the energy disappear.
I think a layer of concrete or maybe even granite would increase isolation and perhaps reduce resonance.
"Foam" will in fact make much of the energy "disappear" in a sense.... At least the audible energy. The issue becomes which frequencies it absorbs and which it allows to pass.

I was very vague. Although I didn't say it, I was thinking of somebody buying this to use in an apartment, hoping that they will be able to get the box's speaker and output tubes of their amp to that nasty and beautiful place AND it won't disturb the neighbors. In that respect, the frequencies which the foam allows to pass are the most offensive to those with whom one shares walls/floors. Of course, keeping the box off/away from the floor/wall/corner will help.
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Re: Isolation Cabinets

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:45 pm

Scott DeVarenne wrote:I was very vague. Although I didn't say it, I was thinking of somebody buying this to use in an apartment, hoping that they will be able to get the box's speaker and output tubes of their amp to that nasty and beautiful place AND it won't disturb the neighbors...
Agreed. Like someone buying an electronic drumset for an apartment and thinking they won't bother their neighbours. It's still gonna be "tappa tappa tappa..."
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Re: Isolation Cabinets

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:59 pm

Christian LeBlanc wrote:
Malcolm Boyce wrote:99.9% of the time, regardless of the microphone, when I mic a cab it will be more or less right on the driver.
I never meant to dispute that placement; just that this enclosure precludes placing a second additional mic a bit further away. "Conventional wisdom" - that is, nothing except a lot of web research on my part, so full apologies for talking about what I don't have practical experience with - leads me to understand that a large diaphragm condenser mic placed further away from the amp, in addition to a dynamic right against the grill, helps round out the tone for recording. While I also understand that in this particular setup, the dynamic is far more important than the condenser, the isolation cab takes that second mic away.
I'm just trying to counter that "conventional wisdom" and say that "second" mic is one of magazine and web lore that doesn't happen in most recording situations that you have heard the outcome of. It is all fine in the experimental stages, but you should conquer the basics before relying on these secondary tactics.

I'm reminded of a project from probably 20 years ago when home multitrack setups around these parts were pretty limited. I was called in to record drums, and coincidentally Scott played bass, on a local guitar player's demos. He was a fan of the shred kings of the day, and had read too many magazine articles about recording gtr cabs with room mics and the such. By the time I was involved, his gtr tracks were completed... cut to MIDI, and they were super thin and watery, due to the lack of a meat and potatoes approach to getting the cab tone on tape. The project ended up like bad guitar tones OD to thick and meaty drums and bass, instead of what it was which was the reverse time line wise. A simple 57 on the cab would have given him something much more current to the kinds of recording he was a fan of. The tone at the amp was great, he just got too far away from that trying to record the way the "book" said.

Christian LeBlanc wrote:That Radial has me interested, though! There's a slightly different build of it here, too: http://www.radialeng.com/r2011/jdx500.php
These Radials look great for consistent tone, but because of the amp and cab involvement, am I right in guessing that there would still be high levels of volume involved? Presumably, if someone preferred how their tube amp sounded at 7, would the cab still be producing those high volumes?
The difference is that you then wouldn't care how the amp is placed or baffled because you're not messing with what will happen with a traditional mic. That being said, the Radial thingy isn't really aimed at trying to control cab volume the same way a box or baffle is. It's more about a different way to get a gtr sound without the "inconsistencies" of a mic.
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Re: Isolation Cabinets

Postby Christian LeBlanc » Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:54 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:It is all fine in the experimental stages, but you should conquer the basics before relying on these secondary tactics.

That's just it - the isolation cabinet wouldn't let me even attempt the basics, it would cover them for me. Best case scenario, it takes away my ability to do something wrong in order to learn what's right. Worst case scenario, it removes the option of slightly augmenting the tone of the 57 against the grill. I personally don't like having that choice taken away, but at least I now understand that if that choice is unnecessary for someone else, these could be pretty useful.
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Re: Isolation Cabinets

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:09 pm

Without every having seen one, that Randall contraption seems to allow for plenty of experimentation with mic positioning with respect to driver. What it of course doesn't' allow for is getting a space involved. Position on the cone, and position on/off axis with the microphone is where most of the heavy lifting is in capturing a cab sound IMO.... That after choosing a decent mic for the job.

I'm not saying you should never involve distance in micing a cabinet. I am saying if you showed up with something like that Randall box, I wouldn't be even slightly worried about getting at least a decent, if not great tone.
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Re: Isolation Cabinets

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:43 pm

A fairly recent session with drums, bass and elec gtr being tracked in close proximity. Inside the pile of foam and board is a Vox amp.

Image
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