Is an SM57 a microphone?

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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby macrae11 » Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:36 pm

Mathieu Benoit wrote:
sean.boyer wrote:
I feel like taking two full days to experiment with every mic we have here to answer some of the questions I have never gotten around to answering yet. An example of that is the m88 on anything but kick drum. I heard great things about it on other sources, but it lives in the kick drum, and I've never had the urge to try it on other things. I need a non-session kinda session off the clock to experiment with crazy things. Id' also love some company when I do.


I can get you a garbage bag full of 57s for cheap. You could even try one on the hi-hat.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby sean.boyer » Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:37 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:Why "even"? [...]

Sometimes I forget that I'm among intelligent, experienced and open AE's... I can't tell you how much shit I've been given over the years about using a 421 on kick. Touring band's sound guys would scoff and give me sympathetic "so this is your first time doing sound" kinda looks when they ask what I mic the traps with. I'd always defend it to the death, and I think the results I got in that room spoke for themselves. But yeah, I've taken a lot of guff about using anything besides a D12/112/b52/D6/etc. How DARE someone do something a little differently eh? Where did I get off...?
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby sean.boyer » Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:43 pm

macrae11 wrote: ... You could even try one on the hi-hat.

If I had any credibility around here before, I'm tossing it all out the window with this, but I must admit: I actually have used a 57 on hats for a few of MY BAND's recordings. My condenser mics were sounding too sharp, and for this particular session I wanted MUD in the hats, because the songs just required warm, mushy mud sounding hats, and not a sharp articulate sound. And the 57 did it without any fuss. On the same session I mic'd the inside of the ride bell with a 57 for similar reasons; I wanted to accentuate the bell, but didn't want it crystal clear. I wanted it dark. Again, the 57 got me exactly where I wanted to be sonically.

Would I do it again now, today (this session was about 7 years ago)? Maybe. Maybe not.

All joking aside, I really don't care about snap criticism of some of my more nefarious methods. I'll do ugly and weird things with "inappropriate" equipment indiscriminately as long as it gets me where I want to be, sonically.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:53 pm

sean.boyer wrote:
Malcolm Boyce wrote:Why "even"? [...]

But yeah, I've taken a lot of guff about using anything besides a D12/112/b52/D6/etc. How DARE someone do something a little differently eh? Where did I get off...?


Sorry they lost me at D112. It's the doorstop to the 57's hammer. :twisted:

sean.boyer wrote:All joking aside, I really don't care about snap criticism of some of my more nefarious methods. I'll do ugly and weird things with "inappropriate" equipment indiscriminately as long as it gets me where I want to be, sonically.


That 's what makes your contributions here most valid.

We sometimes forget that a lot of the inside jokes we share among ourselves aren't caught by people looking on from the outside. The 57 on a hihat comment is exactly that. It's not lost on us that it's about doing "whatever works"... but that being said we like to joke around sometime but your track record precedes you so you'll get no judgement from any of the mods here about your exeperiences.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby sean.boyer » Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:13 pm

hahaha, well I bag on 57's and D112's all the time. I think I'd rather use a 57 on kick before a D112. But I've used D112 on bass and guess what? It can sound good. It's scary. And no, it doesn't make the bass sound like a beach ball, unfortunately. dielaugh
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:24 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:Truth is, I have become a bit of a condenser on everything kind of snob. The only place that isn't typically the case for me is on bass drum.


That's funny Andrew just tried his 414s on my toms last session we did together and it was hella awesome. The big problem with the 421s in the case of toms is that it's been hard to get good rejection of bleed. So I brought in the Gefells and the 4050s and we used those on OHs and rooms respectively and used his 414s ont he toms. Sounded very good, and excellent rejection. I forget how he set them up though. I think cardiod, and then he used placement to reject as much bleed as possible but I'll let him chime in on the details.

Malcolm Boyce wrote:If I have to have only one dynamic, it'd probably be a 421. Are we talking recording here? I've lost track... :oops:

441 for me so far... with the M201 in second place. I've never tried an RE20 though although I've always wanted to try it.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:29 pm

sean.boyer wrote:hahaha, well I bag on 57's and D112's all the time. I think I'd rather use a 57 on kick before a D112. But I've used D112 on bass and guess what? It can sound good. It's scary. And no, it doesn't make the bass sound like a beach ball, unfortunately. dielaugh


21 posts in and you're already in my top 3 list of favorite posters.

...but seriously, it's a bass. Who cares? it's not like you are recording something important like a tambourine. A D112 on bass is perfectly acceptable. :mrgreen:
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby sean.boyer » Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:34 pm

Mathieu Benoit wrote:I've never tried an RE20 though although I've always wanted to try it.


If I played a horn (well) and was recording it, and the AE didn't stick an RE20 on the stand, I'd probably leave. I don't think anything beats 'em for brass. Also, amazing on bass cab and great on a kick too.

We all joke about 57's being hammers, but I seriously think you could knock down a wall with an RE20. They're a heavy and strong mic.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:50 pm

I would put a D12E more in the same family as a 421. Those other "accepted" bass drum mics Sean mentioned are part of the newer generation of "Kick" mics that have a certain shaped sound that gives them a serious individual character. A 421 isn't a "kick" mic, so it ain't cool anymore.

D112s are the bass drum mic to hate lately, but I'll use one a good 20-30% of the time even with my choice of others. I've had more than a few ask, "what's in the kick?" and be surprised it was a D112. 57 in a bass drum is fine if you don't need any low sub... and yes, I've certainly used it plenty when there were no better options.

Condensers on toms are killer. I was a die hard dynamic on toms fan until I got hooked on SM98s, and then went on to other condensers, live and recorded. I still love 421s on toms, but non availability, placement is a bitch a lot of the time, and the bleed from the rest of the kit can be gross. It's not that they have more off axis bleed, it's just that it's ugly. They're still the mic to beat on close, isolated, processed 80s style tom sounds IMO.

Live lately, on toms close miced, I've been using E604s a huge amount of the time, with Beta98s second. Sometimes Beta56/57 or SM57 will get a chance as well.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:11 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:Condensers on toms are killer. I was a die hard dynamic on toms fan until I got hooked on SM98s, and then went on to other condensers, live and recorded. I still love 421s on toms, but non availability, placement is a bitch a lot of the time, and the bleed from the rest of the kit can be gross. It's not that they have more off axis bleed, it's just that it's ugly.

Exactly what I'm finding, and it was the main reason Andrew wanted to try something different.

Malcolm Boyce wrote:Live lately, on toms close miced, I've been using E604s a huge amount of the time, with Beta98s second. Sometimes Beta56/57 or SM57 will get a chance as well.

For live, e604s are great. They sound good, they are low profile, they don't require a stand. I have 3 of them that I bought on sale and I love them. For live I have a e602mkII permanently mounted in the kick drum of my live kit. They are just to good/convenient for me to not use them live.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:17 pm

Mathieu Benoit wrote: For live I have a e602mkII permanently mounted in the kick drum of my live kit. They are just to good/convenient for me to not use them live.

Version 1 was so bad... even Sennheiser had to replace it... :-D
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Alain Benoit » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:26 pm

D112's on kick I never liked, on bass cab they actually work well.
421's work well period, except for their $70 clip. ( By the way I have a brand new spare one)
RE20's are tough because it's an old EV design, the 635A is the original 'can I borrow your hammer mic', designed for ENG work it's obviously an omni. RE27, ditto.
Never got to use a D6, I was getting out of live sound by then, they any good?
Metallica's black album featured an SM7 on the hi-hats.
For live 604's are the cat's pj's on toms, they are tough, light, require no stand, unobtrusive, and sound rather decent.
I've always known that LDC's rock the toms in the studio, odd you guys never attempted this before, been more than one two tom sessions.
I've always wanted to try the Josephson e22 on toms, maybe someday.

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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:33 pm

Alain Benoit wrote:...Never got to use a D6, I was getting out of live sound by then, they any good?
...
For live 604's are the cat's pj's on toms, they are tough, light, require no stand, unobtrusive, and sound rather decent....
D6 I would classify as a modern "rock" sound. To my ear, fairly exaggerated as far as it's "EQ", but when it works, it works. Nice design operationally although I've seen a few in bad shape in rental kits.

My only issue ever with 604s was that the original clip for toms was lame when trying to use it on smaller diameter drums by putting it out over the drum too far. Sennheiser actually fixed this in a reasonable amount of time, and most I've run into over the years have the the better mount.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby macrae11 » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:50 pm

sean.boyer wrote:
macrae11 wrote: ... You could even try one on the hi-hat.

All joking aside, I really don't care about snap criticism of some of my more nefarious methods. I'll do ugly and weird things with "inappropriate" equipment indiscriminately as long as it gets me where I want to be, sonically.


I'm really all about using whatever it takes to get things done and have done far crazier things in specific situations. I usually prefer to use microphones for recording drums, but I'm sure a 57 could work fine as well.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby sean.boyer » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:56 pm

I'm not a big fan of the D6 for kick... I find it super hyped in the low end. It's smooth, but it's too... cushy or something for my taste. Can't get enough upper-mid for my liking. They'd probably be good for metal if you had triggers for the clack or metal beaters or something. I'd like to try one on a sub-bass recording (like for dub or de-tuned metal or something) as I bet they would be pretty smooth in the sub 100hz region. Hell, maybe even a floor tom. I'll have to grab one next time I see one that's been run over by a few trucks for $20 at Digital World.

I've never had an issue with the 604's live. They're perfectly convenient, and even designed to deflect stick hits (as in if you hit one by mistake, there's not really anything for your stick to get hung on so it slides right off). They sound fine, and have good rejection characteristics. I did a live recording with them a few years back and was shocked with how much of the "front facing" sound was NOT present in those tracks. Snare and hats bled in, but other stage noise was almost non-present.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby macrae11 » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:57 pm

Alain Benoit wrote:I've always known that LDC's rock the toms in the studio, odd you guys never attempted this before, been more than one two tom sessions.
A.


We did once a long time ago. We did a shootout and preferred the 421's but since then I've been mic'ing drums from further and further away so the bleed kept getting more offensive. I've actually meant to do it for a long time but it seems lately whenever I come up the drums are mic'd and we're on a short time schedule with no time to experiment so the old standbys stay on. I always bring up my 414's anyways so next time we'll just use them on toms instead of room.

For the record I used them in figure 8 with the nulls pointing at the closest cymbal and snare which helped even more with bleed. The floor tom mic was a little closer to Matts hand when playing the far right crash, but it was fine. Getting the nulls to the cymbals/snare also meant the mic was up nice and high which I like. Much more natural and less attacky than a typical close mic'd tom. Haven't mixed that project yet, but probably in the next couple of weeks.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Alain Benoit » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:13 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:My only issue ever with 604s was that the original clip for toms was lame when trying to use it on smaller diameter drums by putting it out over the drum too far. Sennheiser actually fixed this in a reasonable amount of time, and most I've run into over the years have the the better mount.


My fix as you likely recall was to flip all the clips over, then they wouldn't fit in the case.

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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:09 pm

Alain Benoit wrote:
Malcolm Boyce wrote:My only issue ever with 604s was that the original clip for toms was lame when trying to use it on smaller diameter drums by putting it out over the drum too far. Sennheiser actually fixed this in a reasonable amount of time, and most I've run into over the years have the the better mount.


My fix as you likely recall was to flip all the clips over, then they wouldn't fit in the case.

A.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby macrae11 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:52 am

macrae11 wrote:We did once a long time ago. We did a shootout and preferred the 421's but since then I've been mic'ing drums from further and further away so the bleed kept getting more offensive. I've actually meant to do it for a long time but it seems lately whenever I come up the drums are mic'd and we're on a short time schedule with no time to experiment so the old standbys stay on. I always bring up my 414's anyways so next time we'll just use them on toms instead of room.

For the record I used them in figure 8 with the nulls pointing at the closest cymbal and snare which helped even more with bleed. The floor tom mic was a little closer to Matts hand when playing the far right crash, but it was fine. Getting the nulls to the cymbals/snare also meant the mic was up nice and high which I like. Much more natural and less attacky than a typical close mic'd tom. Haven't mixed that project yet, but probably in the next couple of weeks.


So I mixed the first two songs from this session this week and found the tom sounds interesting. I was doing a lot of drum work on the first tune trying to get everything in place, and things weren't happening. Using all my usual tricks to get toms to sound like toms and generally just going in circles. Then when I was about to start from scratch again, I bypassed everything and low and behold, "Hey that sounds like a tom!" Spent a bit more time on it, but way more subtle than what I usually have to do. Added a bit of attack and some light expansion, tweak some resonances a touch and there it was. Done.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:37 pm

macrae11 wrote:So I mixed the first two songs from this session this week and found the tom sounds interesting. I was doing a lot of drum work on the first tune trying to get everything in place, and things weren't happening. Using all my usual tricks to get toms to sound like toms and generally just going in circles. Then when I was about to start from scratch again, I bypassed everything and low and behold, "Hey that sounds like a tom!" Spent a bit more time on it, but way more subtle than what I usually have to do. Added a bit of attack and some light expansion, tweak some resonances a touch and there it was. Done.


So you started reaching for a pre-set approach before hearing the sound because...? The toms sounded like toms when I left, I'm just not sure why all the jumping through hoops but I'm sure you had a good reason.

That being said, I'm very excited to hear them now, but I'm more excited to hear how much easier they are making the mixing of the drums in general.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:39 pm

macrae11 wrote:
macrae11 wrote:We did once a long time ago. We did a shootout and preferred the 421's but since then I've been mic'ing drums from further and further away so the bleed kept getting more offensive. I've actually meant to do it for a long time but it seems lately whenever I come up the drums are mic'd and we're on a short time schedule with no time to experiment so the old standbys stay on. I always bring up my 414's anyways so next time we'll just use them on toms instead of room.

For the record I used them in figure 8 with the nulls pointing at the closest cymbal and snare which helped even more with bleed. The floor tom mic was a little closer to Matts hand when playing the far right crash, but it was fine. Getting the nulls to the cymbals/snare also meant the mic was up nice and high which I like. Much more natural and less attacky than a typical close mic'd tom. Haven't mixed that project yet, but probably in the next couple of weeks.


So I mixed the first two songs from this session this week and found the tom sounds interesting. I was doing a lot of drum work on the first tune trying to get everything in place, and things weren't happening. Using all my usual tricks to get toms to sound like toms and generally just going in circles. Then when I was about to start from scratch again, I bypassed everything and low and behold, "Hey that sounds like a tom!" Spent a bit more time on it, but way more subtle than what I usually have to do. Added a bit of attack and some light expansion, tweak some resonances a touch and there it was. Done.

Different technique going in = different technique at mix time. Even something as seemingly insignificant as toms.
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It just fills Forum pages..." --compasspnt

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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby macrae11 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:42 pm

Mathieu Benoit wrote:
macrae11 wrote:So I mixed the first two songs from this session this week and found the tom sounds interesting. I was doing a lot of drum work on the first tune trying to get everything in place, and things weren't happening. Using all my usual tricks to get toms to sound like toms and generally just going in circles. Then when I was about to start from scratch again, I bypassed everything and low and behold, "Hey that sounds like a tom!" Spent a bit more time on it, but way more subtle than what I usually have to do. Added a bit of attack and some light expansion, tweak some resonances a touch and there it was. Done.


So you started reaching for a pre-set approach before hearing the sound because...? The toms sounded like toms when I left, I'm just not sure why all the jumping through hoops but I'm sure you had a good reason.

That being said, I'm very excited to hear them now, but I'm more excited to hear how much easier they are making the mixing of the drums in general.

I started on my usual path because when I was first setting up the drums it sounded good with just the drums. When I started bringing other instruments in is when it started getting funky which is why I went back to the drawing board.

And it doesn't make things a whole lot easier. Saves maybe about 5 minutes per album, but I am liking the sound.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:17 pm

macrae11 wrote:I started on my usual path because when I was first setting up the drums it sounded good with just the drums. When I started bringing other instruments in is when it started getting funky which is why I went back to the drawing board.

And it doesn't make things a whole lot easier. Saves maybe about 5 minutes per album, but I am liking the sound.


Are you still finding that you have to gate the toms as much as your normally would in some cases?
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby macrae11 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:03 pm

Haven't got into a real rocking piece yet, but so far no, not nearly as much. The bleed also sounds much better so I don't mind what is there nearly as much. I think I was averaging 4-5dB of expansion where normally I'd be anywhere from 6-10. That's except for the times in a real rocking dense mix where I have had to hard gate the toms. I'm interested to try one of those mixes with this new setup.
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Re: Is an SM57 a microphone?

Postby macrae11 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:15 pm

So the songs not released yet so I can't let it out of the bag, but I figure it's safe to upload some drum tracks. Here's the whole drum mix with nothing else:
http://soundcloud.com/mastertracks-studios/drums

I was going for a tight and dry drum sound so the room mic didn't make the mix, which was the only mic. Even the hi hat snuck in there a little bit. Loving the big fat snare sound.

As a side note I don't use soundcloud much but PT10 has this cool new feature that I wanted to try. You can now upload your mix direct from Pro Tools to Soundcloud. Just type in your user name and password and PT handles the rest. Not something I'll use a lot but would be really cool for self recordists to be able to upload the absolute best quality very quickly and easily.
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