Is an SM57 a microphone?

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Is an SM57 a microphone?

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:01 pm

macrae11 wrote:Yeah not going to worry too much about positioning. Pretty much just fired it in there across the strings leanin towards the treble side. Luckily its really only needed for monitors or I'd be real pissed. I still might turn it on in the house for one tune but we'll have to see after intermission.


Pretty much just firing a mic on to something is common practice in live from what I've around town. My favorite example of that is the verticle sm57 that hangs in front of the guitar amp. You don't even need a stand if you wrap the cable around the handle of he amp a few times.

Speaking of "sounds bad" and live applications... I won't get into where this happenened or with who but I went to help a band out with a setup not long ago. The drummer requested some mic cables a few mics since the venue was short of proper working mic cables and the band wanted additional mics that weren't part of the mic kit that the venue provided. I got there and helped with the setup. I originally went there do do the soundcheck but by the time I got there, the house sound guy was already well into his "zone" so I opted instead to simply help him out and I started to help set up the mic lines on the stage.

We had trouble witha few of the mic lines as there seemed to be a lot of bad mic cables, so I'd have to swap a few cables out for some of ours (that I personally tested before leaving.) When we got to the condenser used as an overhead when ran into some trouble. I changed the mic line since that was a likely culprit in my experience but that wasn't it. we also changed the channel on the snake since that was a potential issue as well. That wasn't it either... so the rest of us went abotu our business while he tried to troubleshoot the issue. A few minutes went by and he still hadn't figured it out. He the comes on stage and examines the mic. He then asks "Is this one of those condensers that needs phantom power?" facepalm

It went downhill from there unfortunately... I've never heard worst sound in my life, either on the stage or in front of it. That fact is also compounded by the fact that it's one of the bigger PAs in town capable of delivering an impressive amount of SPL. Problem is that his gain stages were all messed up. He had no headroom no matter where he looked, everything was pinned. I walked away glad that I wasn't playing there that night.

No piano although there were 57s everywhere...
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby sean.boyer » Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:33 pm

Hey Matt,

Not sure if you were knocking the "hang a 57 from the handle" technique or not, but let me tell you, it works. It works great for amps that are so loud you probably don't need them to be mic'd anyway.

And, once, - and you probably won't believe this - but I did a recording of a Twin, and hung a 58 over the handle to record the scratch track, then went back with "real" mics (forget exactly what - probably a 421 and a 609 or something) and couldn't come close to a sound as good as that 58 hanging through the handle. I was flabbergasted and assumed all my other mics had been sabotaged or something, but honestly, it was just something to do with the produced frequencies, volume/SPL, room acoustics and phase orientation I guess... I've never since replicated that situation in a recording context, but 9/10 times this method is ok for live use in a club or whatever.

Prove this to yourself sometime by going to O'Leary's or something. Have someone hold the mic in front of your favourite speaker location head on. Listen. Then have them move the mic 45 degrees off axis, pointing to the floor. Listen. Conclusion? It's O'Leary's.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:23 pm

sean.boyer wrote:Hey Matt,

Not sure if you were knocking the "hang a 57 from the handle" technique or not, but let me tell you, it works. It works great for amps that are so loud you probably don't need them to be mic'd anyway.

And, once, - and you probably won't believe this - but I did a recording of a Twin, and hung a 58 over the handle to record the scratch track, then went back with "real" mics (forget exactly what - probably a 421 and a 609 or something) and couldn't come close to a sound as good as that 58 hanging through the handle. I was flabbergasted and assumed all my other mics had been sabotaged or something, but honestly, it was just something to do with the produced frequencies, volume/SPL, room acoustics and phase orientation I guess... I've never since replicated that situation in a recording context, but 9/10 times this method is ok for live use in a club or whatever.

Prove this to yourself sometime by going to O'Leary's or something. Have someone hold the mic in front of your favourite speaker location head on. Listen. Then have them move the mic 45 degrees off axis, pointing to the floor. Listen. Conclusion? It's O'Leary's.


Few things of note:

Firstly, There's an inside joke here about 57s to begin with and it mostly started when someone called them "microphones". I'm sure I stated somewhere here though that if someone handed me a garbage bag full of 57s I could make it work.

Secondly, I don't normally like 421s or 609s on guitar cabinets and I have no doubt that a 58 could beat either of those in a blind taste test in some cases. I do trust your observation though because based on the stuff I have heard from you, you have great ears and besides weird shit can happen.

Thirdly, I made no specific judgement on the hanging 57 thing, it was merely an observation. You are 100% right... in most small club applications it really doesn't matter. That being said, the problem I have with any live sound being done in town is certainly not anything that you are involved in. If you hung a 57 anywhere, I'd assume it was perfectly acceptable to you in that context and I wouldn't say anything about it.

Lastly, you should post more. You are highly regarded in these parts and you're contribution would be hugely appreciated. :-D
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:38 pm

On the topic of whether a 57 is a microphone... Boyer, have you tried the Beyerdynamic M201? If not, I will lend it to you. If you end up choosing the 57 over it for anything, I'll eat my own hat.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:33 pm

If you are using a 57, 90 degrees off axis because it sounds right, it is most certainly proper technique. If it's because you don't have a proper clip or stand for the mic, just don't care or any other similar reason, that is where I'd wonder why you're doing the gig. This of course is trumped by it being just a placebo mic for either performer or someone else watching.

Someone mentioned starting a "mic position on cabinets" thread..... I wonder if he's still planning on that... ;-)

Mathieu Benoit wrote:On the topic of whether a 57 is a microphone... Boyer, have you tried the Beyerdynamic M201? If not, I will lend it to you. If you end up choosing the 57 over it for anything, I'll eat my own hat.

At risk of sounding like a broken record... I have tried soooooooo many mics that are touted this way, and still will choose the 57 for cabs a majority of the time. In a blind choice.... yes. It's what I like... I'm sorry. Even in modelers that give me a variety of choices of "mic", crazy enough I end up using the "dynamic 57" option.

The same has happened to me so many times trying new, "better" vocal mics live VS Beta58As and I still can't get away from choosing the Shure. Clearly not a "blind" choice, but I've done it so many times, in so many settings, I know it's what will work for me in many situations.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:38 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:
Mathieu Benoit wrote:On the topic of whether a 57 is a microphone... Boyer, have you tried the Beyerdynamic M201? If not, I will lend it to you. If you end up choosing the 57 over it for anything, I'll eat my own hat.

At risk of sounding like a broken record... I have tried soooooooo many mics that are touted this way, and still will choose the 57 for cabs a majority of the time. In a blind choice.... yes. It's what I like... I'm sorry. Even in modelers that give me a variety of choices of "mic", crazy enough I end up using the "dynamic 57" option.

The same has happened to me so many times trying new, "better" vocal mics live VS Beta58As and I still can't get away from choosing the Shure. Clearly not a "blind" choice, but I've done it so many times, in so many settings, I know it's what will work for me in many situations.


I feel a shootout coming on...
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:51 pm

Mathieu Benoit wrote:
Malcolm Boyce wrote:
Mathieu Benoit wrote:On the topic of whether a 57 is a microphone... Boyer, have you tried the Beyerdynamic M201? If not, I will lend it to you. If you end up choosing the 57 over it for anything, I'll eat my own hat.

At risk of sounding like a broken record... I have tried soooooooo many mics that are touted this way, and still will choose the 57 for cabs a majority of the time. In a blind choice.... yes. It's what I like... I'm sorry. Even in modelers that give me a variety of choices of "mic", crazy enough I end up using the "dynamic 57" option.

The same has happened to me so many times trying new, "better" vocal mics live VS Beta58As and I still can't get away from choosing the Shure. Clearly not a "blind" choice, but I've done it so many times, in so many settings, I know it's what will work for me in many situations.


I feel a shootout coming on...
I'd be game. The problem with what is "better" is that it's clearly preference, and preference can be what you're used to hearing. I've just had so many 57s on so many cabs over the years, it's just what my brain defaults to as "right" most times. I'll also be honest and say that when the 57 doesn't work for me, I don't like the sound of the cab to begin with and am trying to change it with the mic/placement. "Good" sounding cabs are always easy, as every other source.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:01 pm

I'm talking about a shootout where everyone can discuss their observations of the same set of circumstances. It's nto a matter of right and wrong, it's a matter of everyone getting together and trying out different things. Together. I think it'd be fun, we could make it open to anyone that would be interested in coming out. Pros, semi-pros, amateurs, hobbyists... come one, come all.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:06 pm

When micing things like cabs, something that makes me a little old school is that I never caught that "use this mic for the buzz and this mic for the bottom" bug. Same for bass drums. Why not use one good mic and be done with it instead of two that on their own don't cut it?

Maybe I just don't understand...
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Alain Benoit » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:08 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:When micing things like cabs, something that makes me a little old school is that I never caught that "use this mic for the buzz and this mic for the bottom" bug. Same for bass drums. Why not use one good mic and be done with it instead of two that on their own don't cut it?


Ditto.

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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Scott DeVarenne » Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:38 pm

Someone mentioned starting a "mic position on cabinets" thread..... I wonder if he's still planning on that...

That was me. Maybe someday. Feeling blah. The more I get to know my amp, the less I love it. I did receive my new cabinet today. That may help rekindle the relationship.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:28 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:When micing things like cabs, something that makes me a little old school is that I never caught that "use this mic for the buzz and this mic for the bottom" bug. Same for bass drums. Why not use one good mic and be done with it instead of two that on their own don't cut it?

Maybe I just don't understand...


I half agree. For guitar cabinet, I've never gotten good results easily with multiple mics. I've been getting consistently good guitar tones (provided the player can play well) with just one mic for a while now.

For a kick drum it's a bit different since I'll often use a tunnel and place a large diaphragm condenser at the end. It's a completely different sound that is complementory (barring and phase alignment issues) to the inside kick and it's often a very efficient tool for getting different flavors of kick drum tone without a lot of extra work during the tracking stage. Come mix time you simply use the two tracks as you see fit and blend to taste.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Alain Benoit » Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:27 pm

Mathieu Benoit wrote:
Malcolm Boyce wrote:When micing things like cabs, something that makes me a little old school is that I never caught that "use this mic for the buzz and this mic for the bottom" bug. Same for bass drums. Why not use one good mic and be done with it instead of two that on their own don't cut it?

Maybe I just don't understand...


I half agree. For guitar cabinet, I've never gotten good results easily with multiple mics. I've been getting consistently good guitar tones (provided the player can play well) with just one mic for a while now.

For a kick drum it's a bit different since I'll often use a tunnel and place a large diaphragm condenser at the end. It's a completely different sound that is complementory (barring and phase alignment issues) to the inside kick and it's often a very efficient tool for getting different flavors of kick drum tone without a lot of extra work during the tracking stage. Come mix time you simply use the two tracks as you see fit and blend to taste.


To clarify, my agreement with Malcolm was based on using two mics in the same position a la AE2500.
Using a close mic and a distant mic is like micing two separate sources to me.

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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby macrae11 » Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:09 pm

Mathieu Benoit wrote:
Malcolm Boyce wrote:When micing things like cabs, something that makes me a little old school is that I never caught that "use this mic for the buzz and this mic for the bottom" bug. Same for bass drums. Why not use one good mic and be done with it instead of two that on their own don't cut it?

Maybe I just don't understand...


I half agree. For guitar cabinet, I've never gotten good results easily with multiple mics. I've been getting consistently good guitar tones (provided the player can play well) with just one mic for a while now.

For a kick drum it's a bit different since I'll often use a tunnel and place a large diaphragm condenser at the end. It's a completely different sound that is complementory (barring and phase alignment issues) to the inside kick and it's often a very efficient tool for getting different flavors of kick drum tone without a lot of extra work during the tracking stage. Come mix time you simply use the two tracks as you see fit and blend to taste.


I very rarely use 2 mics on guitar cabs. But just for reference, about 80%+ of Richard Paul's album was two mics on guitar cabs. 441 and 87 on a bassman and e906 and a Sontronics ribbon on a Vox nighttrain. Very carefully phase aligned before tracking.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:10 am

macrae11 wrote:I very rarely use 2 mics on guitar cabs. But just for reference, about 80%+ of Richard Paul's album was two mics on guitar cabs. 441 and 87 on a bassman and e906 and a Sontronics ribbon on a Vox nighttrain. Very carefully phase aligned before tracking.


I think I remember you telling me that before. So here's a quick question... At what point did you decide that you needed to go that route? Were you lacking something using a single mic that you felt you'd get from two mics? I'm just curious about the thought process that goes into that for you.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby macrae11 » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:43 am

To be perfectly honest the only reason I tried it was that I had a ribbon on loan and I wanted to try it on guitar because it had been a long time since I'd done that. After hearing it I thought it could still use a bit more so I put the 906 on it in bright mode. Awesome. I did some more tweaking on it and some level matching just to make sure I wasn't fooling myself. Then I figured why not try it on the bassman, which was the other amp we were using. Worked even better. The sizzling top end of the 87 close to the grill blended really nicely with the smoothness of the 441. I think those two mics actually got used more in the mix than my original pair. Most of the mixes had the ribbon with just a touch of 906. Having both made them a bit too big I think.

It was never really a conscious choice to use two mics, it was just one of those times where we had whatever time we needed to come up with the best sound and that's what happened.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:27 am

I want to own a good ribbon mic this year. Either an M160 or a 121. I think Tim has a 121, and I really wanna try it on a guitar cabinet. I think then I might really be interested in trying two mics on one cabinet again. Lately I've been using either the 441 or the m201 exclusively on guitar cabinets and I'm not finding that I'm "missing" anything so, I guess I have to do some experimenting to see what else I can get from trying different things.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:20 pm

If I were busier tracking these days... I would so be looking at getting a pair of M160s. I just can't justify the expense right now. I haven't used them in years, but I remember them being super special on so many things I heard them on, as a totally different colour than anything else I'd usually try.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby sean.boyer » Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:57 pm

Mathieu Benoit wrote:On the topic of whether a 57 is a microphone... Boyer, have you tried the Beyerdynamic M201? If not, I will lend it to you. If you end up choosing the 57 over it for anything, I'll eat my own hat.


I almost never use sm 57's in a recording situation these days. I love me some Beta57a on the snare, and sometimes guitar cabs, but otherwise, I save the 57's for live application, 'cause I don't mind 'em.
That said, I'd love to try the 201 sometime (as I haven't used one before and people go on about them endlessly). Lately I'm pretty into the SM7b/D112 for guitar. A back-to-back-to-back-to-back test would be interesting.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Alain Benoit » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:03 pm

If I could only use one dynamic but could have as many of them as I wanted, it would be the SM7.

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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby macrae11 » Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:46 pm

Alain Benoit wrote:If I could only use one dynamic but could have as many of them as I wanted, it would be the SM7.

A.

I think mine would be the RE20 but the 201 and 441 are a close second.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:14 pm

Truth is, I have become a bit of a condenser on everything kind of snob. The only place that isn't typically the case for me is on bass drum.

If I have to have only one dynamic, it'd probably be a 421. Are we talking recording here? I've lost track... :oops:
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby sean.boyer » Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:51 am

For live I would use 421's all day long, on anything... All drums (even kick! That's what I used almost exclusively for all those Elwoods shows), guitars, horns, you name it. Love them live. For recording, I still like 421's here and there (toms, bass cabs, horns) but dislike them for guitars. I find they also work well for voice over work for males with deep voices. They sound a little less sterile than an SM7 for deep male VO IMHO.
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:11 pm

sean.boyer wrote: For recording, I still like 421's here and there (toms, bass cabs, horns) but dislike them for guitars.


Agreed. I like the 201 in all of those applications though, except I haven't tried it with bass cab yet.

I feel like taking two full days to experiment with every mic we have here to answer some of the questions I have never gotten around to answering yet. An example of that is the m88 on anything but kick drum. I heard great things about it on other sources, but it lives in the kick drum, and I've never had the urge to try it on other things. I need a non-session kinda session off the clock to experiment with crazy things. Id' also love some company when I do.

Having Sean posting on here lately has me questioning "what if?"
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Re: Should this go in the sounds bad forum?

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:16 pm

sean.boyer wrote:For live I would use 421's all day long, on anything... All drums (even kick!....
Why "even"? A pretty large number of bass drums miced over the years with 421s. Live and in the studio.

When I was first starting out doing live work, there would almost certainly be 6-10 421s in a decent sized rig. They were used on so many things, and killer good 'cept for the clip. Now, you'd be lucky to see one in a mic list because so many cheaper, and certainly more convenient options have replaced it.
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