Mic Shootout

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Mic Shootout

Postby Burnsy » Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:06 pm

So I was part of a semi-unorthodox, however completely cool-ass class today for my Digital Studio Operations 300 Class. Kevin Herring is the instructor, and an excellent one at that. So anyways, yesterday I received the news from school that my bursary was coming in soon (ie; money I don't have to pay back to the government...sweet....) and I allotted between $400 to $700 to buy a new mic. So I asked Kevin about a couple condensers within that price range yesterday, so for today's class Kevin went out and got a couple mics in that price range from Tony's, along with 2 we had in the studio, to do a listening test in the Live room at CAT's studio.

We used:

1. Rode NT2A
2. Audio Technica 4050
3. Rode NTK
4. SE 4400's

So we tested it using an acoustic guitar, and my vox. The array was basically a cross, with the diaphragms all centered, and the sound sources focused on the center. We used Kevin's 30 year old acoustic maple bodied Guild for the test.... 20" away from the 12th fret. And for the vox, a pop screen about 2" away from the mic array, and I moved to and from the mic, depending on the dynamic of the parts I was singing. I went from normal speech, to up, close, and personal singing, to about 2 feet away from the array...belting out loud.

So here's a beginner's quick review of these mics in this situation, in this studio, with this array, running through the school's SSL console.

The Rode NT2A

I like this mic, it's a decent all rounder. However, with my vox, the upper end was noticeably more harsh, and the "sssss' for sibilance were enough to make me frown. Noticeably harsher on my vox. Sounded almost a bit...almost distorted, or artifact-ish on the upper end. Would definitely need to do some corrective EQing to minimize those upper frequencies (6-8kHz and beyond) Acoustic guitar sounded fine, no complaints, but nothing outstanding. Just a decent all-arounder, in my opinion, on my vox...but not the first choice within that price range for my vox. I do like that it offers cardiod, bi-directional, and omni polar patterns with a couple of standard pads.


The AT 4050

This was my overall favourite of the lot. Flat frequency response. My voice sounded like my voice going through this mic. It sounded like there was non extra flavours added to the sound of my vox singing through this mic. For a condenser, it was warm to me, and accurate. I will buy this mic. Acoustic guitar was accurate, sounded good, no complaints. I liked that there were polar pattern options and pads similar to the NT2A. The verdict is that I will buy this mic, a great all arounder.


The Rode NTK

I really liked the sound of this mic. A large diaphragm, tube condenser mic. It did what I had hoped it would do. Warmth city. This mic I would buy, but right now, because it is only cardioid pattern, no pads, it's a mic that I won't be able to use, in different situations as much as the AT-4050. Versatility is the word I'm thinking about. I would sing through this mic again, and I would play my acoustic to it. This was my introduction to tube-condensers, and I like that sound. Tony's is having a sale.....maybe I'll stop in.....


SE 4400's

So far, I have not heard the limitations of this mic. I really like it, but the price is just outside the $700 range. We did some mid side miking with a pair of these with an acoustic guitar a few months ago. We also used them as a spaced pair OVH on the drums. And they sounded excellent. The sound of these mics consistently left me satisfied. I wish to have a pair of these, they are officially on my wish list. I don't have a whole lot to say about them, because I knew they were just outside my price range. So I just enjoyed listening to them, and left it at that.


So that's it. My quick noob review of the 4 mics that we tested today. Please, if you get the chance, post your own reviews of any mics in this price range, or any other price range. This posting could be a whole other animal.....maybe belongs in the Fluid section. Anyways, this is today's contribution from me. Now to try and update Pro Tools. Grrrrrrr :-D

*EDIT: I am more than willing to be a test dummy in the future, for any microphone shootouts anyone may wish to have. I'll bring my guitar and my vox.
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Re: Mic Shootout

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:29 pm

The only one of the bunch I'm unfamiliar with is the sE 4400. I can see (hear) where you would get those reactions to the NT2A, NTK, and 4050.

Of that bunch, for versatility, I would have to agree with the 4050 being the winner. That being said, the NT2000 is probably a closer match price wise, and quality wise than the NT2A as far as Rode's non valve offerings. You may want to give it a spin as an option for a multi pattern LDC in that approx price range, especially if you liked the NTK.

Really though, in it's price range you can't go wrong with a 4050 where I come from.
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Re: Mic Shootout

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:26 am

We have a pair of 4050s and they are a true workhouse mic. In that price range they are not easily matched IMHO.

BTW I'd LOVE to do a mic shootout this fall. Should I start a signup sheet?
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Re: Mic Shootout

Postby Burnsy » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:17 am

I'm in!
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Re: Mic Shootout

Postby macrae11 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:36 pm

Burnsy wrote:Sounded almost a bit...almost distorted, or artifact-ish on the upper end.

That to me is the sound of Rødes. Some have it to a lesser degree such as the K2(boring) and the Classic(awesome) but it's always there I find. The NTK has it, but it's buried by the big phat low end. I've heard that this can be reduced or eliminated as well as smoothing out the low end with a tube upgrade. Out of the choices you listed I second(third) the choice of the 4050 in your price range however just to muddy the waters a bit, a used 414B-ULS would be in your price range as would a new Shure KSM32. They'll give you similar flexibility to the 4050 but with a little more mojo.
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Re: Mic Shootout

Postby macrae11 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:37 pm

Mathieu Benoit wrote:We have a pair of 4050s and they are a true workhouse mic. In that price range they are not easily matched IMHO.

BTW I'd LOVE to do a mic shootout this fall. Should I start a signup sheet?

I'll bring the scotch!
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Re: Mic Shootout

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:45 am

macrae11 wrote:
Burnsy wrote:Sounded almost a bit...almost distorted, or artifact-ish on the upper end.

That to me is the sound of Rødes. Some have it to a lesser degree such as the K2(boring) and the Classic(awesome) but it's always there I find. The NTK has it, but it's buried by the big phat low end. I've heard that this can be reduced or eliminated as well as smoothing out the low end with a tube upgrade. Out of the choices you listed I second(third) the choice of the 4050 in your price range however just to muddy the waters a bit, a used 414B-ULS would be in your price range as would a new Shure KSM32. They'll give you similar flexibility to the 4050 but with a little more mojo.
If you wanna talk "used" in the price range, I'd put the KSM44 in with the 414 you mentioned or the 414B XLS for all purpose mojo.

I enjoy the "Rode sound" on a lot of things. Sometimes, that top end is the trick. I haven't used a Classic II, but I hear they are super underrated. I don't know if I've heard the K2 classed as "boring" before... I keep hearing the NT2A compared to 414s and such, but they aren't even near the price class so I guess that says something about the perception of the mic in a way that they're being tossed into that battle regularly. I use it... I like it. Is it in the same class sonically with the 414 or 4050...? Certainly not IMO.
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Re: Mic Shootout

Postby macrae11 » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:42 am

Yes the KSM44 is great, but the 32 is not far off and in the price range new. Personally I don't care for the new 414's at all. I'd much sooner go with something from the Shure line up than something that's had the Harmon touch. Don't know if Harmon is actually what changed the sound of the new 414's, just know I don't like them.

The Røde sound can be great on certain things, but horrible on other things. Which is why, especially for a first mic it's better to get something that's more versatile in a "won't suck on anything kind of way". Maybe boring isn't the best word for the K2 but after hearing how great the Classic and ClassicII are, and the vibeyness of the NTK, it's just kind of "meh". I'm not actually a huge fan of the NTK either but it's certainly got mojo. I once used the K2 for a whole record and it really didn't let me down, it just didn't wow me on anything. The NT2A may have a perception of being in the same class as a 414 or 4050, but you're absolutely right that it isn't playing in the same league sonically.
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Re: Mic Shootout

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:30 pm

macrae11 wrote:Yes the KSM44 is great, but the 32 is not far off and in the price range new. ...
See, and other than their shape, I find they have little in common. I like the 32, but it certainly doesn't have the depth of the 44. Horses for courses.

I don't hate the newer 414s as much as some do. I just find they don't have the wow factor that I remember from my early experiences with the brand. With the newer models, I have much less time with the TLII/XLII models than the B-ULS/B-XLS but I still find them worthy of a multi purpose mic that would satisfy most looking in that price range. I really would like to try an XLII to see if it is a significant voice contender as it is marketed.

I remember experiencing 414EBs early on in my audio existence and, combined with my newb-ness I'm sure, they truly did live up to their omnipresence in the industry at the time. I wouldn't have been aware enough to know what we were working with capsule wise, but that sound most certainly influenced me at that stage in my growth.
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Re: Mic Shootout

Postby macrae11 » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:20 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:
macrae11 wrote:Yes the KSM44 is great, but the 32 is not far off and in the price range new. ...
Malcolm Boyce wrote:See, and other than their shape, I find they have little in common. I like the 32, but it certainly doesn't have the depth of the 44. Horses for courses.


Should have clarified. They certainly have different sounds, I was just speaking quality wise when comparing the 44 and the 32. The 44 is clearly the superior mic, but the 32 is not far off.

Malcolm Boyce wrote:I don't hate the newer 414s as much as some do. I just find they don't have the wow factor that I remember from my early experiences with the brand. With the newer models, I have much less time with the TLII/XLII models than the B-ULS/B-XLS but I still find them worthy of a multi purpose mic that would satisfy most looking in that price range. I really would like to try an XLII to see if it is a significant voice contender as it is marketed.

I remember experiencing 414EBs early on in my audio existence and, combined with my newb-ness I'm sure, they truly did live up to their omnipresence in the industry at the time. I wouldn't have been aware enough to know what we were working with capsule wise, but that sound most certainly influenced me at that stage in my growth.

I really have no use for the new 414's when there are so many other mics out there for the same price and cheaper that absolutely blow them out of the water. I've used the EB and the ULS extensively and while they're quite different I love them both. The ULS is much cleaner, quieter, and flatter and I have yet to find anything that they suck on. And I've tried. The EB is a bit more "exciting" and while it can really enhance things there's also times where it can be tiring. The only one of the lineup that I've never used is the XLS which I always thought had more in common with the two modern variants than it's older siblings but I have nothing to base that on other than hearsay.
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Re: Mic Shootout

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:44 pm

macrae11 wrote:The only one of the lineup that I've never used is the XLS which I always thought had more in common with the two modern variants than it's older siblings but I have nothing to base that on other than hearsay.

You meant the new "XLS" vs the "B-XLS"? I haven't used either of the newer non "B" models, but I thought there wasn't supposed to be much difference between them and their immediate predecessors. Isn't it basically in between options polar pattern wise? Since there have been some popular mid budget mics with infinitely variable patterns, I wouldn't be surprised to see this be a new trend that happens with many manufacturers.

I always considered ULS and XLS to be pretty comparable.... Maybe I just have too much of a romantic attachment to 414s. :oops:

So, if you were going for a pair of all purpose multi pattern mics instead of 414s, in their price range or less, what would you go for? 4050s? Funny how it's become a bit of a modern classic for many of us.
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Re: Mic Shootout

Postby macrae11 » Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:00 am

Malcolm Boyce wrote:
macrae11 wrote:The only one of the lineup that I've never used is the XLS which I always thought had more in common with the two modern variants than it's older siblings but I have nothing to base that on other than hearsay.

You meant the new "XLS" vs the "B-XLS"? I haven't used either of the newer non "B" models, but I thought there wasn't supposed to be much difference between them and their immediate predecessors. Isn't it basically in between options polar pattern wise? Since there have been some popular mid budget mics with infinitely variable patterns, I wouldn't be surprised to see this be a new trend that happens with many manufacturers.

I always considered ULS and XLS to be pretty comparable.... Maybe I just have too much of a romantic attachment to 414s. :oops:


Now I'm starting to doubt myself. When did the new XLS versions come out? Perhaps I have used the B-XLS and B-XLII and not the newer non-B models. I've found that the *XLS(that I used) sounds quite different than the B-ULS.

Malcolm Boyce wrote:So, if you were going for a pair of all purpose multi pattern mics instead of 414s, in their price range or less, what would you go for? 4050s? Funny how it's become a bit of a modern classic for many of us.

Well I certainly haven't tried them all in that price range, but if we're talking strictly multipattern I'd take the KSM44, 4050, SE 4400a, AKG 480, or KSM141.(Those last two might be cheating.) If we were considering single polar pattern I'd add TLM102, 4047, Earthworks SR30/40, KM18* to the list.
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Re: Mic Shootout

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:15 pm

macrae11 wrote:
Malcolm Boyce wrote:
macrae11 wrote:The only one of the lineup that I've never used is the XLS which I always thought had more in common with the two modern variants than it's older siblings but I have nothing to base that on other than hearsay.

You meant the new "XLS" vs the "B-XLS"? I haven't used either of the newer non "B" models, but I thought there wasn't supposed to be much difference between them and their immediate predecessors. Isn't it basically in between options polar pattern wise? Since there have been some popular mid budget mics with infinitely variable patterns, I wouldn't be surprised to see this be a new trend that happens with many manufacturers.

I always considered ULS and XLS to be pretty comparable.... Maybe I just have too much of a romantic attachment to 414s. :oops:


Now I'm starting to doubt myself. When did the new XLS versions come out? Perhaps I have used the B-XLS and B-XLII and not the newer non-B models. I've found that the *XLS(that I used) sounds quite different than the B-ULS.
"B" XLS/XLII were replaced a few years ago by "XLS" and "XLII" from what I've read, but they were still available stock wise for a bit after that from what I had seen. I know I saw the "B" models available as recently as last year as well as non "B" models. B-XLS was the direct replacement for the B-ULS early 2000s wasn't it? I would bet you have used "B" models if you're talking before the last couple of years. I haven't even seen any of the newer ones yet.
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Re: Mic Shootout

Postby macrae11 » Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:33 pm

Yeah you're right, my timeline is all confused. I thought the B-ULS was discontinued in 1993, but that was when the TLII came out and ran side by side with the ULS until the mid 2000's, so yes the models I heard most likely were the B-XLS/B-XLII. However I stand by my statement from before that I don't like them. No transformer and an unpleasant top end.

I suppose we're all just looking for second place anyways since they dropped the CK12.
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Re: Mic Shootout

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:41 pm

Everything after the EB for me wasn't a "real" 414. Good, but not what I expect in that name.
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Re: Mic Shootout

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:46 pm

I think we've sufficiently derailed Tom's thread to a 414 history lesson.

Mathieu Benoit wrote:BTW I'd LOVE to do a mic shootout this fall. Should I start a signup sheet?


I'm in for a "shootout" night Matt, but I'll warn you... I'm not very good at them. I keep picking the wrong one... :oops: We talking mic for voice or what do you have in mind?
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Re: Mic Shootout

Postby Alain Benoit » Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:09 am

Although I love how 'fun' my 414EB is the mic I trust the most in here besides obviously the Lawson are the 4050's, I could blindly place them on anything and be able to safely roll.

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Re: Mic Shootout

Postby macrae11 » Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:04 am

Alain Benoit wrote:Although I love how 'fun' my 414EB is the mic I trust the most in here besides obviously the Lawson are the 4050's, I could blindly place them on anything and be able to safely roll.

A.

Exactly. That's what I was saying above, and why I love the B-ULS so much. It keeps a tiny bit of that "fun" but adds in the "works great in absolutely every situation".
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Re: Mic Shootout

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:52 am

Malcolm Boyce wrote:I think we've sufficiently derailed Tom's thread to a 414 history lesson.

Mathieu Benoit wrote:BTW I'd LOVE to do a mic shootout this fall. Should I start a signup sheet?


I'm in for a "shootout" night Matt, but I'll warn you... I'm not very good at them. I keep picking the wrong one... :oops: We talking mic for voice or what do you have in mind?


I'd like to establish a list of sources that everyone involved would like to hear, then establish a list of potential microphones for each of those sources based on what is available to the collective group. I'd want to make everything double blind of course. I also want an SM57 to be involved on EVERY source. Why? Because I want to prove to Malcolm how useless it really is when he picks something else every time.

P.S. I'd want at least Sean Boyer, Andrew and Malcolm to be involved, but hopefully we'd get a few more.
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Re: Mic Shootout

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:18 pm

Mathieu Benoit wrote:I also want an SM57 to be involved on EVERY source. Why? Because I want to prove to Malcolm how useless it really is when he picks something else every time.
FYI... unless it's live on a stage, there are few things a 57 would be my first pick, with a good condenser choice available in the room. :-P
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