Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gate

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Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gate

Postby dylanger » Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:19 pm

So I've been doing some tracking lately and I'm a little confused about how much goes into making a great Electric Guitar tone. I have a few good results but not getting everything I want. I have a feeling that its the lack of mic's and lack of amps. I'm using a Princetone Reverb Reissue (Bassman is still in NB), AKG D5, Strat, Tele, Les Paul. I wondering if I'm getting too picky and I'm going to turn into one of those people with a pile of different amps.


So my question is, what is done to go from that raw guitar tone into the beautiful sounds that I hear on Keith Urban, John Mayer and Colin James Albums. Or is it because they have everything under the sun to record with that their Raw guitar tone sounds that great right from the get go.
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby dylanger » Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:29 pm

Always thought those tone for the solo of this was great 1:59
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAj9JyJnWqA

Love the intro tone
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9TG9kOObHU

Overdriven Tele ( I think) 2:26
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q87yVYl3zG0


Are you guys using overdrive pedals or a lot of the time is it just the amp on 11 .
Thoughts on Using a pedals from your DAW?

I know I'm throwing a lot out there to be answered but this is one thing I would really like to be good at.

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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:29 pm

Two distinct but related issues:

Tone at the source.... see: Gtr cabinet.

What you capture with the mic.

Yes many great guitar players have it "together" so little needs to be done but put the right mic up in front of the speaker and it sounds like they sound.

That being said, there are so many ways to get a great sound. Some of the "fussiest" players I've ever worked with have used every combination and permutation of gear to get stellar tones. No one right way, IMHO.

If you don't want to watch the whole thing... (shame on you) skip to about the 4 min mark here:

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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby dylanger » Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:39 pm

Thanks for the quick reply Malcolm, I seem to find a really nice tone but I find once I mic goes up to the cab I get a lot of harsh high end that I really done want. I'm cooking supper right now but ill have a look when I'm done.
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:57 pm

When you're hearing the tone of your cab, are you on axis with the drivers, or off to the side a fair bit? Is the room you're in playing a big part in what you're experiencing or are you hearing a true representation of what the cab is producing?

If you think you're really hearing the sound of the cab, a starting point would be to try some different mics to see if that gets you anywhere closer to what you want... And don't forget to try different mic positions on the driver to hear what that does for you. Don't you have a side address AT condenser? I'd try that for sure...
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby dylanger » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:07 pm

I've been trying a lot of different mic positions, the ones that actually worked best for me today were a foot away pointed down a little, placed right at the edge of the cab. Then the same thing but pointed across the face of the amp. Is there a way to post sound clips?
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby dylanger » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:19 pm

http://soundcloud.com/farrellygreen/big ... -phase-1-1

Heres the tunes I'm working on. The tracks are for the most part scratch tracks, besides the drums and bass. I was really just trying to write the parts and I'm not sure if the double stop part in the middle is staying. I love he tone I have of the intro, and like the tones of the rhythm (until I screw up the chords in the solo hehe) The tone I have for the solo is not what I'm after. Let me know what you think
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:33 pm

Before you get too carried away with getting the room involved by distant micing, try different positions on the driver, straight on axis, from directly centered and then varied locations between that and the surround at the edge of the driver. Move in small increments when doing this. Don't forget that close micing of the driver with a directional mic will cause an increase in proximity effect for low freq response. Usually, closer to the center of the driver will be "brighter" and further out toward the edge will "warm" up.

If you don't get something you're happy with, once you exhaust on axis positions, try that method again, but chose a spot that was closest to what you want, and turn the mic off axis in small increments and hear how that affects things.

Once again, if you have the time, there is no shortage of mics and techniques you can try when experimenting with guitar sounds.
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:37 pm

dylanger wrote:http://soundcloud.com/farrellygreen/big-sunglasses-phase-1-1

Heres the tunes I'm working on. The tracks are for the most part scratch tracks, besides the drums and bass. I was really just trying to write the parts and I'm not sure if the double stop part in the middle is staying. I love he tone I have of the intro, and like the tones of the rhythm (until I screw up the chords in the solo hehe) The tone I have for the solo is not what I'm after. Let me know what you think
Won't let me at that... Do you have it set to "private"?

And yeah... for posting clips, unless you have your own server space, Sound Cloud is pretty hip.
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby dylanger » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:42 pm

You should be able to get in now malcolm.
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:55 pm

dylanger wrote:http://soundcloud.com/farrellygreen/big-sunglasses-phase-1-1

....... I love he tone I have of the intro, and like the tones of the rhythm (until I screw up the chords in the solo hehe) The tone I have for the solo is not what I'm after. Let me know what you think

Yeah, the rthm tone is far more suitable than the lead tone IMO. Am I hearing the gtr tracks without any processing in the mix, because that's important for making judgment calls. I thought I was hearing some obvious compression on the lead tone, but maybe I'm losing my mind.
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:08 pm

dylanger wrote:Always thought those tone for the solo of this was great 1:59
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAj9JyJnWqA

Love the intro tone
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9TG9kOObHU

Overdriven Tele ( I think) 2:26
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q87yVYl3zG0
To me, none of those examples sound like anything not close miced.
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby dylanger » Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:52 am

Whats your definition of close mic'd, what is the max distance from the grill? Now I really want to experiment. There was a lot of "junk" on the solo track. the other stuff probably has something on it as well. Theres a trem pedal in Logic that warms up and colours the tone very nicely, I just turn the depth dial to zero.

If those are closed mic'd cabs in the examples that I like what else would you expect to into to that tone, if you were trying to achieve that tone what would you do?
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby Scott DeVarenne » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:12 am

Like Mal said, differences of mic position when close micing makes a huge difference. If you are doing off axis with the mic pointed down, then maybe try it with the mic pointed up. Up has never worked for me; I don't know if has to do with reflections from the floor, but I have found it to make a world of difference. To a lesser extent, off axis to the right or left can also yeild different results. I don't know why, I just obey what the playback tells me. I've come to place almost no faith in what I hear in the room, but for myself, I know that I like a bright sound and I have to place my ears way off axis from the cabinet to have what I am hearing even remotely match what the mic captures. Good luck.
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:29 am

dylanger wrote:Whats your definition of close mic'd, what is the max distance from the grill? Now I really want to experiment.
Within 6 inches. For me, I typically prefer close as possible.

dylanger wrote:If those are closed mic'd cabs in the examples that I like what else would you expect to into to that tone, if you were trying to achieve that tone what would you do?
I didn't give anything a super critical listen. Everything except the treatment of the lead in the third example seemed pretty straight forward to me. Most of what I hear in those as "tone" sounds like a nice cab sound, miced with an appropriate mic, and not much else.... other than the obvious reverbs and such.

Once again, if you have a tone from your cab that represents what you're looking for, the hard part's over. Capturing it becomes choice of mic, and position. Notice I said "mic"... Singular.

You would probably hate to know how little needs to be done to guitar sounds like that solo in the Mayer tune...
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:39 am

I know you're a John Mayer fan. By the look of his live and recording setups, he's a bit of a gear pig, so it wouldn't surprise me if his tones aren't ridiculous right at the source. He's not afraid to play through a big pile of gear to get it to happen right at the cab stage.

Works for me.
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby dylanger » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:57 am

Scott DeVarenne wrote:I've come to place almost no faith in what I hear in the room.


I'm starting to learn this.



Malcolm Boyce wrote:
dylanger wrote:
You would probably hate to know how little needs to be done to guitar sounds like that solo in the Mayer tune...


Deep down I think I knew that, Mr. Mayer is definitely a gear pig. He has Dumble amps, all kinds of vintage fender, pretty much anything under the sun. I started realizing a little more than a year ago, its all in the amp. I like buying guitars but I really like buying amps, I figure if you have those 6 or 7 iconic guitars, you can really go to town buying amps. And you can spend $1000 on a strat but if you want a nice vox sound these days your not buying the standard AC30 for $1250 your buying at least the hand wired one for an extra $800 or a company that clones them. I thought I hated Vox until I plugged into the HW AC15 thats at Fluid. I find myself listening to music for the guitar tone, I really like Keith Urban's writing but I love what they do in the studio with guitar tracks, Its really what draws me to modern country music.
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby Scott DeVarenne » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:07 am

Just have a drink and lay down yer' tracks. We'll fix it in the mix.
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:14 am

Scott DeVarenne wrote:Just have a drink and lay down yer' tracks. We'll fix it in the mix.
Don't make me smack you! facepalm
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:20 am

dylanger wrote:
Scott DeVarenne wrote:I've come to place almost no faith in what I hear in the room.


I'm starting to learn this.
Unless I am purposely trying to get the room involved, I will always listen to the cab directly in close proximity (within reason and of course) to hear what is actually going on closer to where the microphone will be hearing the source. That way I can better deal with what I have when I hear it reproduced.

Listening to the actual sound before deciding what's wrong with the reproduction is something I learned early on, and am still surprised at how many people don't actually do it in practice. Not just gtr amps, but anything that's miced.
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby dylanger » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:21 am

Haha Matt would hate me. For the most part I've failed at becoming a great engineer, that ship sailed and I cool with that. But I really want to be able to track killer electric guitar, acoustic guitar, and vocals. Then on top of that have a good understanding of recording other misc instruments. I'll be happy if I can achieve that as I writes albums, I have to put that ahead of anything.
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby Scott DeVarenne » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:48 am

I will write more tomorrow. Where are you, Alaska, or something? Please keep in mind we are a few hours ahead of you. G'night.
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby macrae11 » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:56 am

I wouldn't mind having a listen to the track too. Malcolm's spot on with getting the source right. Mayer uses scandalous amounts of gear, and obviously has the hands for it. So so much of that clean tone comes from the hands. On the room issue, I have no problem using distance micing to get some room as long as the room is good. I might be able to hear a bit of room in the first two examples that you posted, but like Mal said, it's not having a very big effect if there is any. For me it totally depends, but I'll usually never be much further away than 3-4 feet, and usually less than 1 foot. I just mention it because I know in several of John's later albums they employed "distant" micing, sometime even capturing multiple cabs with one mic.

As far as pedals it so depends. Depends on what I have available for amps, how much grit I'm looking for, how much compression I want etc. Sometimes pedals, sometimes amp, sometimes both. Almost never running effects back out to pedals from the DAW. Sound that is being tracked will generally be extremely close to whats mixed. If I am using effects from the DAW, I'll typically run them while tracking. I have a tendency to use many subtle delays particularly on arpeggiated, lead, or single line parts. Like 4-5 different delays is not at all uncommon for me.

Another thing to keep in mind is context. What might sound great on it's own could fall to pieces in the mix/arrangement. Now obviously the quality of the mix/arrangement will be a big factor, and that may need some changing, but crafting a tone that compliments what is already in place is key. It becomes easier with experience but often just requires trial and error to learn.
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:41 am

Whoa! I decide to put my phone away for one night to spend some time with the wife, and I miss all this? Well... I haven't heard any of the new guitar tracks yet because now I'm at work and I forgot my earbuds at home. However I'll get to listening to them tonight and give you a more specific observation.

For now...here's my more "general" response...

First of all, as the potential mixer of this project I will fix nothing in the mix, there is no reason you can't get me good tracks. ;-)

You haven't failed at being a great engineer, you simply chose to spend your time developing yourself into a great artist. You know enough to be effective though, at least for the purposes of getting great guitar tones. I've never to this day had very positive results from trying to "fix" something in the mix. So, if you want great guitar tones on your album (and you should)... Let's try to get them now. You spent the money on getting good drum tones, and getting the bed tracks done right. So there's really no reason to expect anything less from your guitar tones.

Secondly, you are far too talented of a guitar player to have mediocre tone coming out of any amp to begin with, so I'd start with what it sounds like at the amp as Malcolm suggested. Do you have any restrictions in terms of volume? So long as you can get the tone and sound you want when you are in the room, then getting that sound to the hard drive shouldn't be too complicated, don't over think it.

Now, what exactly is an "AKG D5"? Do you have any other mics you can try out? If I agreed with Malcolm (let's say that I do for now)that close micing is probably gonna give you the results you are describing, that makes the room less important and makes this all boil down to 3 variables. Sound coming out of cabinet, microphone selection, and microphone placement. I put them in order of the importance I would personally place on them. So maybe that mic is the thing holding you back? If you don't have any other options (SM57 isn't a real option... but go ahead and try it anyways :mrgreen:)and wanted to make a good investment, buy a m201 for ~$300 or try to pick up a used 441 for under $400, and then we'll be able to solve that as a variable. Plus you'll have a great recording mic for the rest of your life.

If you want to involve the room, then you can certainly do that but it really depends on the sound of the room. You may not have much control over that so by all means try out different things, try some distance micing (or a combination of both) but in the end adding an extra variable to your circumstances may just complicate matters.

Worst case scenario, use a DI to record the direct out of your guitar and I can try re-amping it here. If we go down that road however... Document EVERYTHING about the guitar used in the recording. String gauge, type of pick, volume/tone setting on the guitar, which guitar. That way if we needed to reproduce those results they are recall-able.
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:47 am

macrae11 wrote:Another thing to keep in mind is context. What might sound great on it's own could fall to pieces in the mix/arrangement. Now obviously the quality of the mix/arrangement will be a big factor, and that may need some changing, but crafting a tone that compliments what is already in place is key. It becomes easier with experience but often just requires trial and error to learn.


The solo button is a most troublesome button indeed. Use it only to suss out specific issues, and then get back to the full mix as quickly as you can, lest you chase your tail for hours on end.
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