Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gate

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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:30 pm

Mathieu Benoit wrote:
macrae11 wrote:Another thing to keep in mind is context. What might sound great on it's own could fall to pieces in the mix/arrangement. Now obviously the quality of the mix/arrangement will be a big factor, and that may need some changing, but crafting a tone that compliments what is already in place is key. It becomes easier with experience but often just requires trial and error to learn.


The solo button is a most troublesome button indeed. Use it only to suss out specific issues, and then get back to the full mix as quickly as you can, lest you chase your tail for hours on end.
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:38 pm

Mathieu Benoit wrote:Now, what exactly is an "AKG D5"?
http://www.akg.com/site/products/powers ... ge,EN.html :-P

Knowing Dylan, what he does have going for him is that he knows what he likes, and that is often a huge missing element in the search for sounds. At that stage, keeping focused through the process becomes the challenge. You can easily lose track of where you are heading, especially when working alone. That's what causes the dreaded next day listen-back regret...
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby Nick H. » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:58 pm

I'm still having trouble listening to the example on Sound Cloud. It's telling me that the track is private, or non-existant. Is anyone else having this problem?
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:00 pm

Nick H. wrote:I'm still having trouble listening to the example on Sound Cloud. It's telling me that the track is private, or non-existant. Is anyone else having this problem?
I think that's on purpose because it's a work in progress and not a track for consumption. Dylan just "allowed" me in SoundCloud... 8-)
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby dylanger » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:50 pm

Mathieu Benoit wrote:
First of all, as the potential mixer of this project I will fix nothing in the mix, there is no reason you can't get me good tracks. ;-)

Thats what I'm after

Now, what exactly is an "AKG D5"? Do you have any other mics you can try out?

This is a $100 vocal mic that I had kickin around one day and thought I try it for the fun of it and it worked really really well for me. The intro of this song was recorded with that mic on a Handwired Ampeg Jet RI. I'm thinking that it was mostly in the amp now.


buy a m201 for ~$300

Have one on order. You and I did a little mic shootout on my bassman while we were re-amping for that feedback project. That was my favourite out of all of them, my least favourite was actually the 421, probably had a lot to do with the positioning.


macrae11 wrote:
I just mention it because I know in several of John's later albums they employed "distant" micing, sometime even capturing multiple cabs with one mic.

He does this a lot on his last album. Have a listen to this @ 1:11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNCmVhvWmYU

It sounds like the main rhythm track is capturing the room too.



As far as pedals it so depends. Depends on what I have available for amps, how much grit I'm looking for, how much compression I want etc. Sometimes pedals, sometimes amp, sometimes both.

Do you prefer running a compression pedal? When working with Aaron her has that nice diamond compressor. Thats also I purchase I want to make in the next little while.


I have a tendency to use many subtle delays particularly on arpeggiated, lead, or single line parts. Like 4-5 different delays is not at all uncommon for me.

I hear this a lot and I like it, I just bought an electro harmonics memory toy, haven't really nailed a nice setting down but still working on it.


Nick H. wrote:I'm still having trouble listening to the example on Sound Cloud. It's telling me that the track is private, or non-existant. Is anyone else having this problem?


It should be good to go know so anyone can listen to it.
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby Nick H. » Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:10 pm

macrae11 wrote:If I am using effects from the DAW, I'll typically run them while tracking. I have a tendency to use many subtle delays particularly on arpeggiated, lead, or single line parts. Like 4-5 different delays is not at all uncommon for me.


I'm a really big fan of this. Similar to Andrew (and likely because of his influence), I often find myself with several delays on electric guitars. I'll often hard-pan the delays -- eg: centred guitar, 8th delay panned to one side, dotted 8th on the other, etc. That being said, I imagine that experimenting with delays is much more difficult with a pedal than it would be in the DAW. Is it potentially something you could do in Logic?

I'll post more specific thoughts when I get home and have a listen, for whatever that's worth.
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:29 pm

Nick H. wrote:
macrae11 wrote:If I am using effects from the DAW, I'll typically run them while tracking. I have a tendency to use many subtle delays particularly on arpeggiated, lead, or single line parts. Like 4-5 different delays is not at all uncommon for me.


I'm a really big fan of this. Similar to Andrew (and likely because of his influence), I often find myself with several delays on electric guitars. I'll often hard-pan the delays -- eg: centred guitar, 8th delay panned to one side, dotted 8th on the other, etc. That being said, I imagine that experimenting with delays is much more difficult with a pedal than it would be in the DAW. Is it potentially something you could do in Logic?

I'll post more specific thoughts when I get home and have a listen, for whatever that's worth.



I'm all for delays... But let that be something that can be adjusted and tweaked come mix time. I would hate to get guitar tracks with delay already on them. :-P
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:48 pm

Mathieu Benoit wrote:I'm all for delays... But let that be something that can be adjusted and tweaked come mix time. I would hate to get guitar tracks with delay already on them. :-P
Maybe I'm taking you too literally, but I would disagree with that as a philosophy. Special "FX" as far as stuff that you use to a make musical and mix choices after the fact is one thing, but delays chosen as part of the gtr tone when played, especially as part of the player's sound, is totally appropriate. As well, some delays are played with as a piece of the guitar "part" and are as set as the notes chosen by the player.
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:51 pm

Dylan needs to learn how to tweak the BBCode Quotes... :-)
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:55 pm

By and large I would only agree with you in certain cases. My biggest thing is syncing the delay to the rest of the session. Andrew's compromise is the best really, have the delays set up in the DAW while you are tracking. That's not to say the delays should be burned into the track. Too many times I've seen that bite someone in the ass.

I have no intention of dealing with misaligned complex delays while mixing. That being said, if he gets it perfect and I don't have to do anything to it, then great! Less work for me. Usually though, it just ties my hands and makes me wish someone would re-record the thing.

Malcolm Boyce wrote:Dylan needs to learn how to tweak the BBCode Quotes...


Word.
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:05 pm

Everyone has their line of what they will commit to a track. I'm sure it's very different for people from even slightly different generations.

"Re-Amping", whether digital or analog, is the norm for some people's workflow. Usually the case for me when the sound wasn't together at tracking, and wasn't going to be together. In proper circumstances, entirely unnecessary.

Matt's comment on "misaligned" delays makes me wonder if something sonically interesting, but not mathematically correct would fall into that category. If that's the case, you'd hate an awful lot of guitar tracks that I love... :-)
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:11 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:Matt's comment on "misaligned" delays makes me wonder if something sonically interesting, but not mathematically correct would fall into that category. If that's the case, you'd hate an awful lot of guitar tracks that I love... :-)


It's case by case, either it works for the song or it doesn't. Same goes for any kind of correction or editing. I don't always edit the drums either, it depends on if it feels right to begin with. If things aren't locking then it usually needs to be fixed. Sure this is all subjective, but I'll usually draw a line in the sand somewhere.
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby dylanger » Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:23 pm

Sorry I should of explain myself better. By buying that pedal I can fool around with my live rig so I can find stuff I like. I pretty much never put any "junk" on coming out of the amp. I usually set up a pedal board in logic to ad verb and any little colour tricks I've found out about.

I know the red looks ridiculous and knew someone would say something. I'm on diaper duty today so I had to wake up my nephew and drive to hinton for an appointment. So I didn't have time to get it right. Ill look into it tonight lol
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:38 pm

So I listened to the track... I hear what you are saying Dylan, I'm not crazy about those tones. I'm wondering how much of that is performance though... I won't get into specifics here about that, I'll discuss that with you privately later, but I'm not sure that this is a mic/placement kinda thing. If you start recording the direct out I can maybe get a better idea of whether I'm right though, by trying out some options over here.

As a side note... Sometimes being an engineer and a performer at the same time makes one compromise the quality of both. Happens to me all the time, it's why I get someone else to engineer if I'm gonna play. Studios still have their place in the world, if for no other reason than letting a performer get into that "zone".
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby macrae11 » Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:16 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:
Mathieu Benoit wrote:I'm all for delays... But let that be something that can be adjusted and tweaked come mix time. I would hate to get guitar tracks with delay already on them. :-P
Maybe I'm taking you too literally, but I would disagree with that as a philosophy. Special "FX" as far as stuff that you use to a make musical and mix choices after the fact is one thing, but delays chosen as part of the gtr tone when played, especially as part of the player's sound, is totally appropriate. As well, some delays are played with as a piece of the guitar "part" and are as set as the notes chosen by the player.

I think it totally depends on the purpose of the delays. For lots of stuff I'll take printed delays no problem. Things like slapback, or just some ambient stuff is no problem, but delays that are musically related I find work best after the fact for a few reasons.

1. Lots of players have difficulty getting delays to sit in time perfectly. This gets exacerbated by delays with lots of repeats and/or odd delays like dotted 1/8th notes. If the delay needs to become rhythmically ingrained in the part either the band needs to follow the delays, or the guitar player needs to be able dial things in perfectly.

2. When you want lots of delays. Most players don't have multiple delay units, or at least very rarely more than 2.

3. Most players don't run their effects through the amps effects loop and even if they do, you still lose the effects of the power section if you're running the amp at high volume. This is more noticeable when running at a higher gain setting because if the delays are in series before the amps input the delays can get less and less distorted as they fade out. Only really noticeable when the player stops playing but still I'll usually rather have the delays have a similar tone. If I do want the delays to change over time there's many other (better) ways of accomplishing that.
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby macrae11 » Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:06 pm

dylanger wrote:
macrae11 wrote:
I just mention it because I know in several of John's later albums they employed "distant" micing, sometime even capturing multiple cabs with one mic.

He does this a lot on his last album. Have a listen to this @ 1:11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNCmVhvWmYU

It sounds like the main rhythm track is capturing the room too.

Yeah it's more the main rhythm track that I'm referring to. The solo is obviously using the room as an effect, but the rhythm tracks just have a bit of space around them. I suppose it could be artificial reverb, but it just sounds like the room to me.
dylanger wrote:
macrae11 wrote:
As far as pedals it so depends. Depends on what I have available for amps, how much grit I'm looking for, how much compression I want etc. Sometimes pedals, sometimes amp, sometimes both.

Do you prefer running a compression pedal? When working with Aaron her has that nice diamond compressor. Thats also I purchase I want to make in the next little while.

Again it just depends. I really love the sound of the Diamond, in fact it's one of only a handful of pedal compressors that I actually like to use for something other than a "Holy shit this is so compressed!" effect. That being said when tracking with Aaron I probably have him disengage it 50% of the time. The other half is probably 45% with just some gentle squeeze to control some attack and 5% going for that Boss CS-1 compressor sustainer sound. Although sometimes I'll use it as a tone shaper with the EQ knob or as a gain stage without actually compressing.


dylanger wrote:
macrae11 wrote: I have a tendency to use many subtle delays particularly on arpeggiated, lead, or single line parts. Like 4-5 different delays is not at all uncommon for me.

I hear this a lot and I like it, I just bought an electro harmonics memory toy, haven't really nailed a nice setting down but still working on it.

Like I mentioned it would be different for every song. It would be tricky to do the tempo delays I was referring to above without at least a tap tempo.


Speaking of compression, I'm not crazy about the compression on the guitar in your mix. I don't know if it's directly on the guitar or mix bus, or if it's something SoundCloud's doing, but I don't think it's helping. Perhaps you just need to tweak the settings, or maybe you need no compression, or maybe scads more of it. Don't know.

I get Matt's point about it being performance based, and there's some truth to that. How and where you play notes will certainly affect the tone, I kind of think the tone you've chosen might not be quite right for the song, and that's affecting your choice of notes. Also contextually the way the mix is, the guitars don't sit well at all. The vocals and drums have a ton of reverb while the guitars are basically bone dry and in your face. Maybe try experimenting with some temporal FX, whether just from some distance micing, or after the fact. It might take your playing in a different direction.

Perhaps experimenting some with tones that you would never think to use in this situation might open some new pathways. Sometimes a science experiment is the best thing to get you straightened out even if after a long journey you end up fairly close to where you started out.
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby dylanger » Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:53 pm

I used compression on a lot of these tracks because I found it took away the harshness of the tone. I think if I was making Texas strat tones I'd have it down. The pedals I'm using are very bluesy and maybe I should be trying to expand a little bit that way. I'm using a modded TS9 tubescreaming and a 86 boss OD1.
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby dylanger » Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:20 am

Malcolm, Did you do anything to my solo track on away to hear if you can remember at all?
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Re: Guitar Tones, am I trying to get too much out of the gat

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:35 am

dylanger wrote:Malcolm, Did you do anything to my solo track on away to hear if you can remember at all?
I know there's some delay processing on the rthm and colour tracks, but I don't remember anything with the solo track. I'd say by listening to it, most likely not, but I could probably find the project file and look if you're really curious.
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