Mixing... What are you doing?

Tech talk about audio recording and live stage production.
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How are you mixing?

Poll ended at Sun Dec 10, 2006 7:51 pm

Totally in the box.
5
50%
In the box, with some outboard.
3
30%
Why use a box when I have such a nice console?
1
10%
What's in the box mean?
1
10%
 
Total votes : 10

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:15 am

macrae11 wrote:...the real Protools.
They should sooooooo market it that way. :-)

I honestly don't buy into the whole "summing" issue. We have had issues with bus headroom and quality since the first mixing console. Different DAWs are going to require different treatment to get the desired output. I don't thing ProTools is worse, just different. Maybe it is less forgiving, and folks equate that with what they are hearing, but the truth is, most people will blame the gear before their technique.

I know far too many techs that I've met over the years who had no understanding of the headroom available at the output bus, and I can't imagine that being anything but worse in the digital realm. I understand that the "summing" issue isn't just a headroom issue, but it is certainly related.

I know when I first started using Sonar that one thing that I had read about was real time monitoring sounding "different" than a bounced mixdown. Basically what you heard, and what you got after you bounced ITB were different. The fact was, and is, that after checking the results myself, both source and bounce null perfectly.

It's amazing what you can convince yourself of.
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Postby Alain Benoit » Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:18 pm

macrae11 wrote:....it's corporate policies or tech support(but then there's not a single other audio company that i recall getting good tech support from) .


Now see, this is where you are wrong.
Call up Manley and ask to speak to someone about a tech problem and Hutch or EveAnna will likely field the call themselves. I dropped in unnanounced once and she took two hours out of her time to show me around the shop.
Avalon, same thing these guys will bend over backwards to make sure that no one ever has anything bad to say about them servicewise to anyone in any forum. That is just good business in the world of boutique audio where their market share is such a narrow piece of an ever thinning pie.
This applies to absolutely every small pro audio manufacturer that I have ever dealt with, the list is long since I usually favour these products because they often offer new innovative approach to applications, and I will always pay extra for the peace of mind of knowing that the shit is 'backed up'.

Now, companies like Shittidesign will sell Alsihad regardless whether or not Andrew J. Dingledork got the satisfaction he demanded on an issue he was having with his Loser's Edition of ProFools.

Unfortunately although this distinction certainly exists between the small/ boutique and medium/large manufacturers it does not have to. It just sadly does!!!

I am not trying to argue I'm just saying that small companies CANNOT be painted with that particular brush.
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sat Dec 23, 2006 7:11 pm

U1176 wrote:I am not trying to argue I'm just saying that small companies CANNOT be painted with that particular brush.
I would go further and say that some large companies treat you like they are a small company as well. I've had some surprising experiences with some of the larger outfits, including some of those owned by Harman and the like.

One of my beefs with software, and price and service is...

If you bought a product from someone, like a console, or a preamp, or a compressor, and several features either malfunctioned or didn't work at all, you could expect the vendor, or the manufacturer to come good for it. I imagine either a replacement, or quick repair, or a break on money or other product. With software, any number of things could be wrong, and you will pay full price, and get nothing for your trouble but promises, and full price upgrades. You are expected to search "knowledge" bases, and faq pages, before talking to a person who can help you, and most times you will get "their working on it" as the best possible answer.

The most loony thing is new versions, with new features, and the same old bugs... I say, fix the bugs, keep the new surround plugs.
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Postby Alain Benoit » Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:42 am

Malcolm Boyce wrote:....... including some of those owned by Harman and the like.



Is there a more nefarious company? One thing That Kevin Herring and myself certainly agree on is that everything that Harmon touches goes to shit.
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sun Dec 24, 2006 3:36 pm

U1176 wrote:everything that Harmon touches goes to shit.
Too true. But that hasn't prevented some excellent luck with customer service.

The same can't be said about product and brand quality...
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Postby macrae11 » Tue Dec 26, 2006 9:14 pm

macrae11 wrote:

....it's corporate policies or tech support(but then there's not a single other audio company that i recall getting good tech support from) .


u1176 wrote

Now see, this is where you are wrong.
Call up Manley and ask to speak to someone about a tech problem and Hutch or EveAnna will likely field the call themselves.


Sorry Al you are completely correct. In my original post i had intended to write "software audio companies" as opposed to just audio companies.

Malcolm so eloquently stated much better than i could
If you bought a product from someone, like a console, or a preamp, or a compressor, and several features either malfunctioned or didn't work at all, you could expect the vendor, or the manufacturer to come good for it. I imagine either a replacement, or quick repair, or a break on money or other product. With software, any number of things could be wrong, and you will pay full price, and get nothing for your trouble but promises, and full price upgrades. You are expected to search "knowledge" bases, and faq pages, before talking to a person who can help you, and most times you will get "their working on it" as the best possible answer.

The most loony thing is new versions, with new features, and the same old bugs... I say, fix the bugs, keep the new surround plugs.


I too have had many great customer service contacts with the likes of Avalon and Iz Technology, so i certainly didn't intend to lump them all together in the same boat.
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Postby Alain Benoit » Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:37 am

Just so we are on the same page. :-D
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Postby sammyp » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:24 pm

macrae11 wrote:
I'm so waiting for Andrew to chime in on this...


Alright since you asked so nicely. I usually don't get into alsihad dumping threads, because they so often disintergrate into useless debates over peoples preferences and bias. I haven't used Sonar, in about 3 versions, and i didn't really like the sound of the audio engine then, but i'm sure it's jumped light years since then.

As far as the summing issue goes most of the complaints come from Profools LE(Loser's Edition) I don't know the technical specs that make PTLE sound so much worse on a mix, but it's pretty much the the only thing people hear around here, so they complain that it sucks, without ever hearing the real Protools. Not saying that HD is the bomb or the only way to go, only that i can do a mix on it and be very satisfied with the result.

I do have an LE system, and love it for tracking most sessions, but I would never even consider doing a mix on it.

Also there are so many other things in PT that i would never want to give up. Especially since they just came out with 7.3. There were a lot of features that other DAW's have had for a while that were too long coming, but there were also a lot of other great features, that i love and now use almost every day. I can even do video editing right in PT. Maybe not a big deal for most people, but i do about 50% post work, so it is invaluable.

As far as Shittidesign goes, the name about says it all. I am not a fan of the company as a whole, it's corporate policies or tech support(but then there's not a single other audio company that i recall getting good tech support from) But there products are still top drawer as far as i'm conserned, and PT users have generally banded together to help each other out with questions and tech support, helping alleviate the stress from waiting on the phone for hours and then getting no help from Digi(*&#(*&^$) #)($ design.





I'll definately stand with you on Sonar's cloudy audio engine from years gone by......the differnece between Sonar 3 and 4 was night and day to me.....i think that is a none issue now with 5-8 ....and when you sold me PT 7 MP i was impressed with the cripsness of the DAE!
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:10 pm

As I think this has passed it's original expiration date, I dropping this thread's "sticky" status.
"Once again, it is NEVER the gear that makes a good record.
It just fills Forum pages..." --compasspnt

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