Mixing... What are you doing?

Tech talk about audio recording and live stage production.
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How are you mixing?

Poll ended at Sun Dec 10, 2006 7:51 pm

Totally in the box.
5
50%
In the box, with some outboard.
3
30%
Why use a box when I have such a nice console?
1
10%
What's in the box mean?
1
10%
 
Total votes : 10

Mixing... What are you doing?

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:51 pm

I'm always interested to see what the state of affairs is in our market. Folks like to talk about what "industry standard" is, but what matters is what's going on here. What I'm curious about in our little piece of the world is, how are you all mixing down your projects. With the widespread acceptance of DAWs, it's really come down to how much is being done ITB.

I've mixed 100% of everything I've done in the past few years totally in the box. I haven't used any outboard ANYTHING.

So how about you?
Last edited by Malcolm Boyce on Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby weatherstation audio » Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:10 pm

Well,
in my case it cycles back and forth a bit from project to project, or studio to studio... one thing is for sure, despite the tracking medium I use, the mixes always end up being finalized in the box.

a few of us on this board (the over 30 crowd), started cutting are teeth in the era of when it was some form of tape medium...
example: DTRS/VHS machines, open reel analog machines and simple 4 track cassettes, even... as I remember, Malcolm had captured some really cool stuff in the 80's on a lonely 4 track cassette recorder... a lot of that stuff had really cool vibe to it, pure 100% indie sound. Despite any of the technological limitations of the era, Malcolm had managed to capture a moment in time... a mark of good thing, I say.

A funny thought, we should make are own 'Classic Albums' episode of Saint John recordings... hopefully we can get Malcolm to dig out some old 4 tracks of the band 'Happy' etc...
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:27 am

weatherstation audio wrote:A funny thought, we should make are own 'Classic Albums' episode of Saint John recordings... hopefully we can get Malcolm to dig out some old 4 tracks of the band 'Happy' etc...
We could probably get Rogers Cable10 to pick that up.
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Postby weatherstation audio » Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:24 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:We could probably get Rogers Cable10 to pick that up.


Rogers Cable10, they'll air what ever they can...
a good place to start a pilote project though.


'Classic Albums' is already a licensed name... we need another clever name ?
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:41 pm

weatherstation audio wrote:'Classic Albums' is already a licensed name... we need another clever name ?
"Classic Demos" ®
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Postby weatherstation audio » Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:07 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:"Classic Demos" (TM)


Yeah !
We could really run wild with that idea,
it could be a spoof, mocking the big budget albums.
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:06 am

One of the things I find interesting about DAW based mixing, and the automation, is the experience of the newest generation recordists. They are so used to complete mix recall, excluding those using outboard, that they are shocked to find how much you have to physically reset on automated consoles.

I'm just old enough to remember when "snapshot" was more associated with the assistant engineer taking Polaroids of the console, patch, and outboard, to be "reset" at a later time. You haven't lived until you've straddled a million dollar desk, with one foot on the meter bridge, and one on the arm rest, taking an "automation" Polaroid.

Even now, the majority of automated consoles don't actually reset most of the controls themselves, but provide you with a guide to physically reseting it yourself. To the youngest generation, this is a bizarre way to work, and is one more reason why digital is here to stay, and getting bigger all the time.

I'll say again, I love my DAW!

One of the best quotes about mix automation was credited to George Harrison asking "Why would you want to recall a mix you don't like?"
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Postby Alain Benoit » Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:01 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:
One of the best quotes about mix automation was credited to George Harrison asking "Why would you want to recall a mix you don't like?"



Beautiful!
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Postby josh porter » Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:20 pm

what does in the box mean?? i've never heard of it.
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Postby Alain Benoit » Tue Dec 12, 2006 8:03 pm

Josh, this refers to mixing within the application as opposed to a mixer. The "Box" refers to a computer.
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:04 pm

josh porter wrote:what does in the box mean?? i've never heard of it.
In a broader sense, "in the box" has come to mean working in a digital audio workstation or DAW. It is just a slang term, but is becoming more and more accepted. You will hear people refer to "recording in the box" or "mixing in the box".

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, you can work totally "in the box" or a combination of in the box and other gear. As well, you might have someone like Weatherstation who may start a project in another format altogether like an analog tape machine, and transfer it to a DAW to mix it "in the box".
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Postby Alain Benoit » Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:22 am

Malcolm Boyce wrote: As well, you might have someone like Weatherstation who may start a project in another format altogether like an analog tape machine, and transfer it to a DAW to mix it "in the box".


I have done this on occasion as well where I would track to a stand alone recorder and transfer the files to a DAW for someone else to edit and mix.

Another option I have available to me is automate my mixes in the DAW and sum it through my console giving full as opposed to partial automation with the added benefit of analogue summing.

The reported downfall of mixing "In the Box" is the issue of summing. To this effect many people are editing and automating mixes "In the Box" but summing outboard. Manufacturers such as Roll Music Systems, Dangerous Music andPhoenix Audio are designing products from the ground up with "Out of the Box" summing in mind.
Many other manufacturers such as Geoff Tanner'sAurora Audio and Neve are also jumping in the game with classical design architectures claiming to be the 'cure' for the "In the Box" sound.

You will also see many people selling small to medium format vintage consoles of lunchboxed rails as a perfect add on to a DAW. This is a trend that is growing on eBay as it is a way to reach a market which would otherwise not be interested in ever purchasing anything resembling a mixer.
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:00 am

U1176 wrote:The reported downfall of mixing "In the Box" is the issue of summing.
This is becoming less of an issue as DAW manufacturers are getting it together. The newer versions of Sonar, which I have been using, all have such high resolution and a solid audio engine, that I haven't heard any issues with "summing". I have performed many tests, and had files perfectly null every time.

It has become a bit of a buzzword, but as the digital gear gets better across the board, it will get less print.
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Postby Alain Benoit » Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:46 am

Glad to hear some advances in that respect.
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:16 am

U1176 wrote:Glad to hear some advances in that respect.
To people who have used several of the more serious DAWs, Sonar is considered a leader in the quality of it's engine and buss structure. Nuendo is also know to have one of the better ones as well.

A lot of the DAW "summing" issues have been with that "industry standard" DAW from Dodgydesign. :roll:
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Postby Alain Benoit » Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:56 am

Ah yes ProFools from Shittidesign. I expected as much. Or rather I knew it was a major issue with ProFools but being rather ignorant of other applications I assumed this was a problem that plagued others as well.

When Cubase 4 gets here in a few days would you be willing to give it the once over in that regard?
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Postby weatherstation audio » Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:55 am

U1176 wrote:When Cubase 4 gets here in a few days would you be willing to give it the once over in that regard?


Cubase appears to be the swiss army knife for DAW users, strong on building midi tracks of sorts... etc

The nature of mixing live recorded acts in the studio, leads me to use the uncluttered Sonar as the plaform to do a "in the box"mix with... and it is true the sonic flavour has improved over the years... although, it's a very subjective thing... I mean, if it sounds good, it isn't wrong, just different.

Sometimes, I'll load a Sonar mixes and feed 16 sub-tracks back to my AMEK/TAC console for alt sonic flavour, but to attempt this every session will require more patchbay soldering on my part to make the patch system more effortless and efficient.
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Postby Alain Benoit » Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:47 pm

weatherstation audio wrote:
Sometimes, I'll load a Sonar mixes and feed 16 sub-tracks back to my AMEK/TAC console for alt sonic flavour, but to attempt this every session will require more patchbay soldering on my part to make the patch system more effortless and efficient.


Hey I know a guy!! ;-)
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:53 pm

U1176 wrote:Ah yes ProFools from Shittidesign.
I'm so waiting for Andrew to chime in on this....
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Postby Alain Benoit » Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:16 pm

U1176 wrote:When Cubase 4 gets here in a few days would you be willing to give it the once over in that regard?


Well Malcolm, its here now and installed, what do you say to a test?
I'll block the time at your convenience.
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Postby weatherstation audio » Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:31 pm

U1176 wrote:
Hey I know a guy!! ;-)


That reminds me,

Is my old Traynor guitar amp still over there ?

I should re-wire that sucker...
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Postby oddioguy » Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:36 pm

weatherstation audio wrote:
U1176 wrote:
Hey I know a guy!! ;-)


That reminds me,

Is my old Traynor guitar amp still over there ?

I should re-wire that sucker...

Where have I heard that before? Image
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Postby weatherstation audio » Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:31 pm

I my god,

that emoticon is funniest thing I've seen in months !!!

Yeah yeah, I know... I'm actually scared to re-wire this amp... I'm sure I'll fuck it up and come crying to Thom to fix it.

*says with a wimpering voice*
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Postby oddioguy » Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:44 pm

weatherstation audio wrote:I my god,

that emoticon is funniest thing I've seen in months !!!

Yeah yeah, I know... I'm actually scared to re-wire this amp... I'm sure I'll fuck it up and come crying to Thom to fix it.

*says with a wimpering voice*
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Use the force, Luke....
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Postby macrae11 » Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:57 am

I'm so waiting for Andrew to chime in on this...


Alright since you asked so nicely. I usually don't get into alsihad dumping threads, because they so often disintergrate into useless debates over peoples preferences and bias. I haven't used Sonar, in about 3 versions, and i didn't really like the sound of the audio engine then, but i'm sure it's jumped light years since then.

As far as the summing issue goes most of the complaints come from Profools LE(Loser's Edition) I don't know the technical specs that make PTLE sound so much worse on a mix, but it's pretty much the the only thing people hear around here, so they complain that it sucks, without ever hearing the real Protools. Not saying that HD is the bomb or the only way to go, only that i can do a mix on it and be very satisfied with the result.

I do have an LE system, and love it for tracking most sessions, but I would never even consider doing a mix on it.

Also there are so many other things in PT that i would never want to give up. Especially since they just came out with 7.3. There were a lot of features that other DAW's have had for a while that were too long coming, but there were also a lot of other great features, that i love and now use almost every day. I can even do video editing right in PT. Maybe not a big deal for most people, but i do about 50% post work, so it is invaluable.

As far as Shittidesign goes, the name about says it all. I am not a fan of the company as a whole, it's corporate policies or tech support(but then there's not a single other audio company that i recall getting good tech support from) But there products are still top drawer as far as i'm conserned, and PT users have generally banded together to help each other out with questions and tech support, helping alleviate the stress from waiting on the phone for hours and then getting no help from Digi(*&#(*&^$) #)($ design.
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