Compression, plugin vs outboard?

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Compression, plugin vs outboard?

Postby dylanger » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:18 am

I've watched some videos on drum recording when they use a room mic and crush it to create a bigger drum sound. I'm pretty sure I remember this being done on the Paul Grady session. Would there be a big difference using a plugin? Or is the point to do this before the analog signal converts to a digital signal. Or would it be better to use a plugin so you can change settings on the compressor after its tracked?

I would try this out myself but I don't have an outboard compressor or the big drum room.
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Re: Compression, plugin vs outboard?

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:55 pm

Depends, as with everything. "Crushing" room mics can be a really cool effect. However printing that compression to tape could really tie your hands come mix time, unless you either don't care about those tracks or are really sure about your vision.

For that kind of thing I will just use a compression plug-in and avoid the possible headache down the line. Especially since "crushing" is anything but subtle, and therefore can be quite destructive as a process.
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Re: Compression, plugin vs outboard?

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:19 pm

Compressing pre or post AD for a drum sound is not gonna make or break you for the most part. As far as the difference between analog and digital compressors, that's all really a matter of opinion, one that will be seriously affected by your experience and age.

...and yes. Room mics can be the bomb, but don't miss out on the important stage of listening to the drums in the space and deciding if the "room" is worth micing. I see so many people recording the room sound because the interwebs says so, and not because the drums actually sound great there and you wanna capture that ambiance.
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Re: Compression, plugin vs outboard?

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:26 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:...and yes. Room mics can be the bomb, but don't miss out on the important stage of listening to the drums in the space and deciding if the "room" is worth micing. I see so many people recording the room sound because the interwebs says so, and not because the drums actually sound great there and you wanna capture that ambiance.


Come record in our room. The temptation to crush the room mics is not something I take lightly anymore... Haha.
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Re: Compression, plugin vs outboard?

Postby macrae11 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:16 pm

No real answer other than it depends. For room mics I'll almost always give them a bit of squeeze on the way in if i have the option but nothing that's going completely tie my hands. For most drum compression it is an area where I notice the difference between analog and plugin compressors but ill choose depending on what I'm looking for. If I want to utterly obliterate the drums I'll often use the bomb factory BF76 which is about the only thing I use that plugin for. If I'm mixing ITB I'll usually use either the waves H-Comp or V-Comp depending on what I'm going for. For analog it's usually something 1176ish.
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Re: Compression, plugin vs outboard?

Postby dylanger » Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:40 pm

So what really is the benefit to using analog EQ's and compressors before it get converted. Is it really worth spending 4000 on a high end stereo compressor? Not that that's my plan I just see the cost of plugins and it seems like the more flexible and economical route.
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Re: Compression, plugin vs outboard?

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:32 pm

dylanger wrote:So what really is the benefit to using analog EQ's and compressors before it get converted. Is it really worth spending 4000 on a high end stereo compressor? Not that that's my plan I just see the cost of plugins and it seems like the more flexible and economical route.


Try your stock plugin comps and compare them to the STC-8, then get back to me.

Since I only have so many channels of good outboard EQ/Compression, I just decide what is more critical in the mix and I assign things accordingly.
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Re: Compression, plugin vs outboard?

Postby dylanger » Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:17 pm

I suppose.

Is it possible to "re-amp" something that was already tracked. Or would the ADADA taint the signal?
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Re: Compression, plugin vs outboard?

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:04 am

dylanger wrote:I suppose.

Is it possible to "re-amp" something that was already tracked. Or would the ADADA taint the signal?


What you are talking about is called "mixing" and it goes on all the time... hahaha. :-P

I wouldn't worry too much about the converters "tainting" it. Most modern converters are fine. it's not 1998 or anything.
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Re: Compression, plugin vs outboard?

Postby dylanger » Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:41 am

facepalm

I know that's how that used to be done, I've just never seen you guys do it, and I thought there would be some reason why.
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Re: Compression, plugin vs outboard?

Postby macrae11 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:31 am

dylanger wrote:So what really is the benefit to using analog EQ's and compressors before it get converted. Is it really worth spending 4000 on a high end stereo compressor? Not that that's my plan I just see the cost of plugins and it seems like the more flexible and economical route.


There are still things that good analogue gear can do that plugins can't. EG I haven't heard a plugin that can come close to representing what the top band of an Avalon EQ can do. Or a plug compressor that can reduce the dynamic range nearly as much with complete transparency as the STC-8.

Honestly an STC-8 type compressor is the only thing that I really feel I miss at Outreach. And maybe some type of LA-2A super mojo-y type compressor. Everything else I feel I can do fine with the limited outboard I have or plugs.
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Re: Compression, plugin vs outboard?

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:08 pm

It's the tools you get used to using that affects your perception of "plugin vs outboard". There is a stellar thread on another network that was started to discuss how emulations of certain classic gear does something, but most times not what the corresponding hardware does. Those with experience with analog are the ones who usually are talking about how plugins won't do what the hardware does... etc. etc. It was WW that brought up that he was on a session with a younger guy that was used to using plugins, that all of a sudden had the hardware in front of him and had to relearn how to get them to do what he wanted, proving that the perception does go both ways.

I really don't think it's an analog VS digital debate, but more of a tool VS tool debate. No different than having to get used to a different mic selection on a given job.
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Re: Compression, plugin vs outboard?

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:18 pm

dylanger wrote:facepalm

I know that's how that used to be done, I've just never seen you guys do it, and I thought there would be some reason why.



I know... Just teasing you for calling it "re-amping" ... :mrgreen:
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Re: Compression, plugin vs outboard?

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:22 pm

Mathieu Benoit wrote:
dylanger wrote:facepalm

I know that's how that used to be done, I've just never seen you guys do it, and I thought there would be some reason why.



I know... Just teasing you for calling it "re-amping" ... :mrgreen:
:lol:
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Re: Compression, plugin vs outboard?

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:23 pm

that being said, I am currently in the process of beta testing a new type of remote processing that feels a lot like "re-amping". More on that later..
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Re: Compression, plugin vs outboard?

Postby dylanger » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:33 pm

That's what I'm thinking Malcolm. Plugins aren't bad compared to analog, just different. I was just curious if there was a benefit to using outboard before it hits your converters.
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Re: Compression, plugin vs outboard?

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:02 pm

dylanger wrote:That's what I'm thinking Malcolm. Plugins aren't bad compared to analog, just different. I was just curious if there was a benefit to using outboard before it hits your converters.
If you've got the gear, and can commit to a sound, compressing before VS inserting hardware after is something I would do. I certainly wouldn't sweat the difference though.
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Re: Compression, plugin vs outboard?

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:37 pm

dylanger wrote:That's what I'm thinking Malcolm. Plugins aren't bad compared to analog, just different. I was just curious if there was a benefit to using outboard before it hits your converters.



I would say in this day and age, the converters shouldn't really be much of an issue. The bigger thing here, I think, is a matter of workflow and confidence. Many people like to commit things to tape because if forces them to really make sure they aren't making arbitrary decisions.

I use mostly plugins, because they are convenient and I don't always have the luxury of an assistant to do the recalls. However as Andrew said, there are certain pieces of gear in our arsenal that I doubt any plugin could match (none that i have come across yet) but we did just purchase a UAD-2 card with a few plugins on it, so I guess we'll keep searching until something comes up that can either matching the brilliance of the 2055's top end, or the STC-8's transparency.
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Re: Compression, plugin vs outboard?

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:14 pm

Mathieu Benoit wrote:I would say in this day and age, the converters shouldn't really be much of an issue.
The thing for me is, all things being equal many people will be able to hear the difference between something processed on the way in VS something with the same process on insert DAD. Especially dynamics processing. It's not the quality of the conversion, it just that it's a process all it's own.

I know I wouldn't sweat it if I were someone trying to decide the Pros VS Cons. Do what will make more sense given the work flow of the given project. That's what will matter more than any minor change in tonality. This is also where having a absolutely solid understanding of interfacing your recorder with your outboard becomes critical. Many people describing huge differences in sound just haven't got things set up to process in the same amount/fashion.
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Re: Compression, plugin vs outboard?

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:51 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:
Mathieu Benoit wrote:I would say in this day and age, the converters shouldn't really be much of an issue.
The thing for me is, all things being equal many people will be able to hear the difference between something processed on the way in VS something with the same process on insert DAD. Especially dynamics processing. It's not the quality of the conversion, it just that it's a process all it's own.


I'd have to wake up really early in the morning to catch that difference...
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Re: Compression, plugin vs outboard?

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:55 pm

Mathieu Benoit wrote:
Malcolm Boyce wrote:
Mathieu Benoit wrote:I would say in this day and age, the converters shouldn't really be much of an issue.
The thing for me is, all things being equal many people will be able to hear the difference between something processed on the way in VS something with the same process on insert DAD. Especially dynamics processing. It's not the quality of the conversion, it just that it's a process all it's own.


I'd have to wake up really early in the morning to catch that difference...
You'd be surprised... Especially with some heavy limiting and ambiance involved.
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Re: Compression, plugin vs outboard?

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:03 pm

Methinks you greatly over-estimatete my ability.... haha.
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