Guitar/Bass Amp Modeling and Emulation

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Amp Modeling / Emulation... Ready for prime time?

Yes
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33%
Not Yet
6
50%
Never
2
17%
 
Total votes : 12

Guitar/Bass Amp Modeling and Emulation

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:48 am

The question comes up these days about digital processing of all types. One that I have talked about a lot lately is the sound of modeled guitar amps. Some believe that they are still very Mattel toy, and others think they are close enough to the real deal that they use them in lieu of their hardware counterparts.

I'm talking about everything from the Pod, to NI Guitar Rig, and everything in between. I'm not talking about in conjunction with traditional amp setups, I'm talking about replacing the typical setup.

So are these little digital wonders worthy of full time use, or strictly to rehearsal and demos?
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Postby fish » Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:41 am

You can pry GR and my V-Amp2 from my cold, dead hands.
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Postby macrae11 » Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:57 am

It's close. I use Amp Farm for background or filler stuff. But i would have a hard time using it on a lead track. Or at least not any lead track. Some styles can get away with it more.
If you're trying to get a super heavy, or extremely processed sound it might work, but a straight ahead blues jam-- not even close.
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Postby weatherstation audio » Thu Mar 01, 2007 1:50 pm

the Nigel is pretty groovy as well... it's harder to get clean tone out of it though.
"sweet songs never last too long on a broken radio"
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:09 pm

The new Glen Creamer album has a mix of both miced cabs, and 100% NI Guitar Rig sounds, and I'll be damned if anyone could tell me which was which.

I mixed the thing and I'm not sure what's what.

In my opinion, the only thing modeling doesn't give you is the interaction between the cab and the guitar itself. Therefore, if you monitor the sounds in the environment with the guitar, the same as you would standing next to an amp, it will remove that one "missing" link. I still think that is about 1% of some sounds.

When I knew the sounds were happening was when I was mixing guitar tracks in songs with both sources, and I wasn't fighting to get one to work with the other. The modeled tones worked with the miced cabs with no effort. Rhythm tracks modeled with leads from an amp, and vice versa,,, or two rhythm tracks from different sources. Very convincing.

One track in particular, cut with a Tele, when put through the Guitar Rig "Twin" was very much a Tele through a Twin...
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Postby Alain Benoit » Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:50 pm

I doubt you would ever catch me doing that.
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Postby weatherstation audio » Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:22 pm

U1176 wrote:I doubt you would ever catch me doing that.


well yeah... nothing beats the real deal... but as a rule, never say ever.
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Postby Jef » Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:44 pm

The hard part is convincing die-hard guitarists that using emulated sounds could be a 'good' thing.
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Postby Alain Benoit » Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:18 pm

Hard for a reason, I have yet to have seen a national/international touring act able to afford any scenario, bypass the cabinet.
As soon as you do that you rob yourself of so many options such as tone of the amplifier, transformers, cabinet, drivers, microphone position, microphone choice and microphone preamp choice.
Why anyone would want to do that is beyond me.
For the live scene those of you who want to chime in with the "quiet stage is a happy stage" I am in full agreement but there are many ways to get a tone from a REAL rig without peeling the paint off the deck.
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Postby oddioguy » Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:52 pm

Each has its own place.
I use sounds from a box when I want to capture a feel immediately, on demos, and when I used to gig. ( I still used a power amp / cab)
Modelled souunds just aren't dynamic, they feel 2 dimensional, but the flexibility is unbeatable.
The interaction between guitar and a real amp has yet to be reproduced, IMHO.
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Postby Alain Benoit » Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:24 pm

oddioguy wrote:Each has its own place.
I use sounds from a box when I want to capture a feel immediately, on demos, and when I used to gig. ( I still used a power amp / cab)
Modelled souunds just aren't dynamic, they feel 2 dimensional, but the flexibility is unbeatable.
The interaction between guitar and a real amp has yet to be reproduced, IMHO.


I would agree with that statement as a whole.
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Postby Jef » Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:50 pm

U1176 wrote:Hard for a reason, I have yet to have seen a national/international touring act able to afford any scenario, bypass the cabinet.
As soon as you do that you rob yourself of so many options such as tone of the amplifier, transformers, cabinet, drivers, microphone position, microphone choice and microphone preamp choice.
Why anyone would want to do that is beyond me.
For the live scene those of you who want to chime in with the "quiet stage is a happy stage" I am in full agreement but there are many ways to get a tone from a REAL rig without peeling the paint off the deck.


Yes, that is so true. Most guitarists use their amplifier as an instrument. By controlling the amount of 'live' feedback into the guitar pickups just by the direction and proximity of the guitar to the speaker cabinet. Riding that feedback wave to hold a harmonic tone for what seems like ...forever; that would be difficult to reproduce artificially.
And also, many guitarists have their rig pretty much tuned in to a sound they have worked long and hard to achieve.
My vote would be use a mic and get the original sound as a first option.

oddioguy wrote:Each has its own place.
I use sounds from a box when I want to capture a feel immediately, on demos.

Oh yeah, they have their practical uses for convenience sake, but probably not on the finished product.
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Postby roachie » Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:56 pm

A few years ago, I worked the "Buddy Holly" show, and was looking around to see what he was using for an amp. It happened to be a POD kidney-beany lookin' pedal at the FOH position... kinda like the rack-mount version you have Al. It sounded great, I love the stuff... I also love "real" amps, but shit like those line-6 jobs, the cyber-twin, and guitar rig have all treated me right.
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Postby Alain Benoit » Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:27 pm

Jef wrote:
U1176 wrote:Hard for a reason, I have yet to have seen a national/international touring act able to afford any scenario, bypass the cabinet.
As soon as you do that you rob yourself of so many options such as tone of the amplifier, transformers, cabinet, drivers, microphone position, microphone choice and microphone preamp choice.
Why anyone would want to do that is beyond me.
For the live scene those of you who want to chime in with the "quiet stage is a happy stage" I am in full agreement but there are many ways to get a tone from a REAL rig without peeling the paint off the deck.


Yes, that is so true. Most guitarists use their amplifier as an instrument. By controlling the amount of 'live' feedback into the guitar pickups just by the direction and proximity of the guitar to the speaker cabinet. Riding that feedback wave to hold a harmonic tone for what seems like ...forever; that would be difficult to reproduce artificially.
And also, many guitarists have their rig pretty much tuned in to a sound they have worked long and hard to achieve.
My vote would be use a mic and get the original sound as a first option.

oddioguy wrote:Each has its own place.
I use sounds from a box when I want to capture a feel immediately, on demos.

Oh yeah, they have their practical uses for convenience sake, but probably not on the finished product.
...Jef...


Exactly, so that being said I use my POD Pro for just that, convenience, while tracking scratch tracks, for rehearsals, but to date never as a keeper take on a serious project. Then again like Marc said........."Never say Never".
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:51 pm

Jef wrote:Yes, that is so true. Most guitarists use their amplifier as an instrument. By controlling the amount of 'live' feedback into the guitar pickups just by the direction and proximity of the guitar to the speaker cabinet. Riding that feedback wave to hold a harmonic tone for what seems like ...forever; that would be difficult to reproduce artificially.
And also, many guitarists have their rig pretty much tuned in to a sound they have worked long and hard to achieve.
My vote would be use a mic and get the original sound as a first option.
My point is that the "tone" of the amp can be generated by modeling, and the only thing missing is the interaction of the amplification hitting the instrument.

The reality is, that if you allow the modeled tone amplified to interact with the guitar, in my opinion you will get the same superior tone.

Al mentioned no "major" touring acts using modeling or digital emulation, but there are some that are using variations in their setups. I have seen, as well, many touring "sidemen" using Pod Pros and the like with a pair of 12" or 10" cabs for the on stage interaction. This is where the advantages work for the consistency and numerous variables of the digital, recallable setups, combined with the interaction between the instrument and the amplified tone.

I have worked sessions with great players known for amazing tone, all of whom insist on playing in position with their amps, regardless of the punishing volume. They know the secret of that.
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Postby Jef » Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:45 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:My point is that the "tone" of the amp can be generated by modeling, and the only thing missing is the interaction of the amplification hitting the instrument.
The reality is, that if you allow the modeled tone amplified to interact with the guitar, in my opinion you will get the same superior tone.

Malcolm Boyce wrote: I have seen, as well, many touring "sidemen" using Pod Pros and the like with a pair of 12" or 10" cabs for the on stage interaction. This is where the advantages work for the consistency and numerous variables of the digital, recallable setups, combined with the interaction between the instrument and the amplified tone.


OK, I think I understand what you are saying now. Using modelled amp sounds within the guitar player's rig and still emulating through a speaker cabinet. In that case then, yes I would think that this already is an inevitable and ongoing evolution to guitar rigs. Just like as signal processing technology becomes more advanced.
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Postby Scott DeVarenne » Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:32 pm

Henceforth, I will refer to these magic boxes as digital preamps.
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:18 pm

lsdeville wrote:Henceforth, I will refer to these magic boxes as digital preamps.
That is an excellent way of looking at it. Fairly accurate as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: Guitar/Bass Amp Modeling and Emulation

Postby Christian LeBlanc » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:54 pm

Well, 4 years have passed since the last post in this discussion. While that should mean several generations in terms of technological evolution, has anyone here found amp modeling to have significantly improved?

I was having a great time earlier today eavesdropping on this conversation from last month, so the material is fairly up-to-date. Even so, they came to many of the same conclusions you guys did in 2007. Read at your own risk ;-)

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Re: Guitar/Bass Amp Modeling and Emulation

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:51 pm

I know the one thing that has changed is that I have seen several players on substantial tours using the Eleven rig live with no cabs and IEMs. These are cats that can use anything and have chosen to go that way. I have no direct experience myself with it to know if it's a step ahead, or just becoming an acceptable thing at the same time that particular product came out. I remember a name country act with the artist using an Eleven rack direct, with the lead player using a pair of blistering cabs offstage, and the two sounds blended brilliantly at FOH. Monitors were all IEMs.

That is the hot product in the last year or so that I'm seeing live, and lots of press for recording names of note. Once again, I don't know if it really is "better" or just the flavour of the time.

I remain in the camp that these digital preamps, as Scott called them, are ready for prime time.
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Re:

Postby Alain Benoit » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:11 pm

Alain Benoit wrote:Hard for a reason, I have yet to have seen a national/international touring act able to afford any scenario, bypass the cabinet.
As soon as you do that you rob yourself of so many options such as tone of the amplifier, transformers, cabinet, drivers, microphone position, microphone choice and microphone preamp choice.
Why anyone would want to do that is beyond me.
For the live scene those of you who want to chime in with the "quiet stage is a happy stage" I am in full agreement but there are many ways to get a tone from a REAL rig without peeling the paint off the deck.


Four years later, Chris Broderick (ex-Nevermore) currently touring and recording with Megadeth is using Fractal Audio's Axe-FX, both live and in the studio. Chris would fit the category of a 'Major' touring act with access to anything he would have for free.
Another popular product is Roger Linn's AdrenaLinn unit.
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Re: Guitar/Bass Amp Modeling and Emulation

Postby Christian LeBlanc » Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:32 am

I don't think this question deserves a separate thread, so:

Given that distortion pedals generally sound better going into a guitar amp than, say, directly into a computer, and
given that PODs (and their ilk) are meant to reproduce the sounds of amps, my question is: do distortion pedals sound quite nice being played into PODs? Or is there some weird mysticism I don't know about that holds back the rock?

I'm thinking about getting a POD for home recording, since I'm under the understanding that putting a mic in front of a guitar amp sounds better when there's a lot of volume coming out of the amp (power amp saturation). I know I could always go for attenuators or lower-wattage amps, but I think I could just get more utility out of something like a POD.
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Re: Guitar/Bass Amp Modeling and Emulation

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:22 pm

Christian LeBlanc wrote:I don't think this question deserves a separate thread, so:

Given that distortion pedals generally sound better going into a guitar amp than, say, directly into a computer, and
given that PODs (and their ilk) are meant to reproduce the sounds of amps, my question is: do distortion pedals sound quite nice being played into PODs? Or is there some weird mysticism I don't know about that holds back the rock?

I'm thinking about getting a POD for home recording, since I'm under the understanding that putting a mic in front of a guitar amp sounds better when there's a lot of volume coming out of the amp (power amp saturation). I know I could always go for attenuators or lower-wattage amps, but I think I could just get more utility out of something like a POD.
IMO, something like a "Pod" is an excellent way to go for recording situations like what you're in. Yes, if you know what you're doing, you can run effects pedals ahead of the modeler which will act as your 'Amp' and respond accordingly.

Generalizing about there needing to be a "lot" of volume from an amp isn't necessarily true, but I understand where it comes from. You do need to excite an enclosure somewhat to get a desirable tone. Desired interaction between guitar and speaker is one situation where volume is certainly necessary.
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Re: Guitar/Bass Amp Modeling and Emulation

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:07 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:Generalizing about there needing to be a "lot" of volume from an amp isn't necessarily true, but I understand where it comes from. You do need to excite an enclosure somewhat to get a desirable tone. Desired interaction between guitar and speaker is one situation where volume is certainly necessary.

I'm not sure if I've ever considered the "volume" per se when I'm recording a guitar amp, I listen to what I like and record it. That being said by the time I'm happy with it I wouldn't want to be in the same postal code as that amp. It's not that I think volume is important I just keep going until the sound excites me, that usually happens somewhere between 7 and 11.

One thing to add, is that we pretty much exclusively have tube amps here too, which is also a factor.
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Re: Guitar/Bass Amp Modeling and Emulation

Postby macrae11 » Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:09 pm

I still haven't heard a model that convinces me it's a real amp while playing and listening back. There are some that are close enough that I don't care about the difference. I haven't heard the Fractal unit though, or it's competitors. All that being said, amp sims are great tools, and as with all tools, it's about how and when you use them. I still dislike the sound of the POD in general, but I've been able to squeeze some usable tones out of it. I think that might be part of the problem too. I know if I plug in a bassman and turn it up to 7 I will be enveloped in pure awesomeness. Spend 5 minutes positioning a mic and you're good to go. Even without spending that 5 minutes, I can usually make an educated guess and have something I'm happy with. With the POD I find you spend an insufferable amount of time tweaking just to get something usable.

If I were you Christian I would find a software solution that works for me. Not only do most of them generally sound better than a POD, but they're upgradeable, and they make things like reamping, and trying out guitar cabs on all kinds of different sources so easy.
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