Snare Drum Mics

[macrae11]

So just to start a sister thread to Matts. Maybe eventually we'll get all the way through the kit. Also how about multimiking the snare. Same mic on bottom as on top, or something completely different?

[Malcolm Boyce]

I voted SM57 because its what I use most often. Bottom mic is always a condenser if I use one.

With a great drummer, and a good drum, I will use an SDC like my new favourite the KSM137. For bottom I love an SM98 or Beta98, but an SM81, 451, or similar rocks for bottom mic.

[Alain Benoit]

CAD E100 is cool on bottom.

[Mathieu Benoit]

If not for mere convenience, is there one mic that is better as an "all-purpose" snare top mic? In anyone's opinion. If you could have any mic magically appear in your hand to place on the top of a snare, would it be safe to assume that most would simply wish for a SM57?

[macrae11]

I've recently started using a 441 for snare top, and am loving it. It's got the same crack as a 57 but with a smoother high end, and a way fatter bottom end. Plus it's a super cardiod so hi hat bleed is less. Between it and the M88 I'm on my way to my perfect drum setup.

For bottom mic I usually grab a 451, but with a few of the snare's I've been using recently it's been a tad sizzily and we actually went with a regular 57. Probably my fav bottom mic, especially for more aggressive drumming, is the Sennheiser e609 though. More than enough sizzle so that you don't feel you need a condenser and a really meaty forward midrange.

PS 137/141's rock!

[Malcolm Boyce]

If not for mere convenience, is there one mic that is better as an "all-purpose" snare top mic? In anyone's opinion. If you could have any mic magically appear in your hand to place on the top of a snare, would it be safe to assume that most would simply wish for a SM57?

An SM57 will always "work"... As soon as you go looking for something special tonally, that's when you'll want options.

[Jef]

For the top mic, I would have to agree with the rest of you for the most part. I like a basic SM57. Not only because it works well and sounds good on the snare, but it is rather inexpensive and will take a great deal of abuse. Not all drummers are right on the mark and sometimes you get a sloppy one who occasionally will whack the mic with a drumstick (accidentally of course).
I use the same reasoning for the tom mics too. I like small mics that can be placed in a way that will keep them from getting whacked.
I haven't yet encountered a situation where the snare needs another mic from the bottom. If I can't easily get the sound I am looking for, I substitute some really good sampled drum sounds in their place.

[Malcolm Boyce]

A 441 for snare top is something special as far as positioning isn't it?

[macrae11]

If not for mere convenience, is there one mic that is better as an "all-purpose" snare top mic? In anyone's opinion. If you could have any mic magically appear in your hand to place on the top of a snare, would it be safe to assume that most would simply wish for a SM57?

An SM57 will always "work"... As soon as you go looking for something special tonally, that's when you'll want options.

I think you said it here Malcolm, maybe without even knowing it. The 57 is a great all purpose snare top mic that will always work.....but special... not so much. Generally I think special is a good thing. I always used to think a 57 or Beta 57 was the be all end all for snare. That was until I tried the 441. This also has something to do with the type of drum sounds I've been going for lately, very big meaty almost 70's snare drums. Think Steve Jordan on Continuum. The 441 can do this in spades. But if you want a little more crack, a bit of a scoop at 250Hz and you're there.

I actually discovered the 441 on snare kind of as a fluke. Al and Marc came up here to do a SDC mic shootout. Just for something to try we threw up the 441 on overheads just to see what would happen. Well it sucked for cymbals, to narrow, not bright enough, but the snare was awesome! So ever since then I've been using it on snare almost exclusively. I used to use it on electric guitar and a 57 on snare but never again.

A 441 for snare top is something special as far as positioning isn't it?

I don't do anything real special with it. you can get a little farther away from the drum since it has a tighter pickup pattern. Which come to think of it might be a big reason I like it so much. I'm a big fan of medium as opposed to close miking all the drums. I use the overheads for the majority of the sound. It does have a fairly long body, but I haven't had that get in the way of any cymbals or anything yet.

[macrae11]

If not for mere convenience, is there one mic that is better as an "all-purpose" snare top mic? In anyone's opinion. If you could have any mic magically appear in your hand to place on the top of a snare, would it be safe to assume that most would simply wish for a SM57?

So to answer your question Matt, 57 is great, can't go wrong with it. It's fast and easy to get a good sound, which as you know can be very important, as much as the sound itself. But if could have whatever mic I wanted, right now anyways that would be the 441. It's really my desert island mic, it works on everything.

[Mathieu Benoit]

For the KT session, you were pointing the mic at the shell. MacRae...What was the deal with that?

[macrae11]

Yeah the bottom mic eventually got moved up to the shell. Normal position on the top. When the bottom mic(57) was directly pointed at the snares, the sound was a little to bright for what Ken and I were after, but it still needed a little something more than what the top mic(also a 57) was giving us. So miking the shell gave a bit more meat without all the sizzle from the snares. When miking the shell the phase can be a little different than a standard bottom snare, and you also have to be careful to be aware of the vent holes.

[ALaudio]

I've had some success with a 57 on top and a 451 on bottom, although I have encountered some snare drums that sound like garbage underneath and the crispiness of the 451 seems to embellish all the stuff you don't wanna hear.

[Malcolm Boyce]

A 441 for snare top is something special as far as positioning isn't it?

I don't do anything real special with it. you can get a little farther away from the drum since it has a tighter pickup pattern. Which come to think of it might be a big reason I like it so much.

I just remember it being pretty sizable to fit into snare drum position... kit depending.

[Malcolm Boyce]

One thing for me with snare drum micing is what I get from bottom mics. A common mistake I hear is people not using them for low frequency body, and just micing the snares... A lot of that fat '70s goodness is the low end from the bottom mic.

And another peeve of mine... Don't just blindly flip phase on bottom mics... listen to them in both positions. Sometimes flipping polarity on the top mic will make more sense when mixed with the OHs. You can use all these options to get closer to where you want to go. Ive just heard this piece of advice given so many times without proper explanation.

Really, any multiple micing of a single source, check phase by using the best test equipment... your ears.

[Mathieu Benoit]

Not to sound retarded... But how can I tell if Im having a phase issue? What does it sound like? Pardon my ignorance, I'm not even a musician, I'm just the drummer.

[Jef]

...Don't just blindly flip phase on bottom mics...

Rather than inverting the phase of one of the mics, you can get better accuracy by zooming right in on the waves and aligning the peaks. Decide which you want to use as a reference, I usually go by the overheads because all of the drums are captured on those tracks.
I find that this method seems to better maintain the tonal quality especially when blending the signal from several mic sources.

[Jef]

...But how can I tell if Im having a phase issue? What does it sound like?..

The phase issue occurs when the same signal is captured from two (or more) distances. Depending upon the amount of difference in distance between mics will determine at which frequency you may have a problem.
When you have 2 waves in sinc with each other the amplitude is increased. If the waves are directly out of phase the signal gets canceled out altogether. Anywhere in between and you get varying degrees of boost and cut at various frequencies.
So, basically what you will hear is a tonal difference, sometimes subtle or sometimes extreme as you blend the two signals.

[macrae11]

One thing for me with snare drum micing is what I get from bottom mics. A common mistake I hear is people not using them for low frequency body, and just micing the snares... A lot of that fat '70s goodness is the low end from the bottom mic.

And another peeve of mine... Don't just blindly flip phase on bottom mics... listen to them in both positions. Sometimes flipping polarity on the top mic will make more sense when mixed with the OHs. You can use all these options to get closer to where you want to go. Ive just heard this piece of advice given so many times without proper explanation.

Those are both excellent points points to getting a good snare sound. If you're just getting the sizzle from underneath you're missing so much. That's why I've been using more dynamics and LDC's under the snare lately.

Not to sound retarded... But how can I tell if Im having a phase issue? What does it sound like?

Hey Matt. You can certainly look at a DAW and see if your peaks are lining up, but you should learn how to hear phasing issues as well, because you don't always have waveforms to go by.

Now I'm sure you've heard phase before, as there are a ton of effects that use phase differences to manipulate the sound, most notably a phaser. But you can break it down to really hear the difference that two mics make phasing against each other. Set up a guitar amp on a fairly high gain setting with no signal going into it. Enough so that you can hear a good hiss coming out of it. Set up a 57 on a stand facing the grill. Then take another 57 and very slowing move the second mic around the other mic in all directions. You'll hear a gentle whooshing (whooshing?) sound that is the two mics phase relationship changing. It's probably easiest to hear this under headphones.

Another tell tale sign of whether you're in phase or not is that you'll have significantly more low end when the two(or more) mics are in phase. A good way to check this is when multimiking the kick drum. Flopping the phase wiill drastically alter the drum tone. I think there are a couple of Kelly Jay songs on the HD24 that you could hear with two kick mics, to see how much of a difference it makes.

[Mathieu Benoit]

This weekend I will try with the 5150 cabinet and two 57s. I'm sure that I'll say "Oh yeah, I've heard this before!" But I'd still like to know for sure.

I'll leave this as a snare mic thread and start another one... Continue with your snare mic discussion.

[Malcolm Boyce]

Rather than inverting the phase of one of the mics, you can get better accuracy by zooming right in on the waves and aligning the peaks. Decide which you want to use as a reference, I usually go by the overheads because all of the drums are captured on those tracks.
I find that this method seems to better maintain the tonal quality especially when blending the signal from several mic sources.

I understand this concept is popular these days, but it reminds me of a dog chasing its tail. Even the difference between two overheads will cause them to be out of alignment with different sources. I don't mind micro-editing multiple tracks from a single source, but when I hear about guys doing this to drum kit, it gives me the willies... Spending time on mic placement up front will yield far more substantial results than hours of nudging...

[Malcolm Boyce]

Not to sound retarded... But how can I tell if Im having a phase issue? What does it sound like? Pardon my ignorance, I'm not even a musician, I'm just the drummer.

If you have any multitracks that Andrew cut at the studio, with top and bottom snare mics on them, solo the two snare mics at the same level with no EQ and listen to them. Then flip phase on one of them and listen. You will hear a big difference, I guarantee. At that point, you would decide which version you would like and go with it. As Andrew mentioned, there is usually a substantial increase in bottom end in one of the two positions, although this may not be the desirable position. You really need to use your ears on this one.

As was mentioned, you also need to reference OHs this way as well, which of course will affect your tom mics, so, when making changes in polarity, check everything...

Clear as mud?

[Mathieu Benoit]

Clear as mud?

Now do you understand why I prefer to program drum rather than play them myself!

Still, I must learn to conquer my fears of recording drums.

[Malcolm Boyce]

Now do you understand why I prefer to program drum rather than play them myself!

Ah yes,,,, but even then when you get stacking samples, you need to check phase between them...

[Mathieu Benoit]

Now do you understand why I prefer to program drum rather than play them myself!

Ah yes,,,, but even then when you get stacking samples, you need to check phase between them...

I hate you...