Stage Volume - A Question For Soundmen

[clinton]

why when I get a good good tone from my amp do soundguys request I turn down so they can mic my amp? If I have a great tone and lots of headroom, why not use stage volume? I've always found this baffling. Why take my sound and then put it through a bunch of other channels that end up changing the sound I wanted from the get go. Hmmm?

[Mathieu Benoit]

This post may get moved to the proper section, but I'll give you my $.02 anyways.

Usually it's to have everything well balanced through the PA. I'm not a sound guy but as far as drummers go, there are few people that can make you blink with a backbeat the way I do. So when I'm playing rock, I have had many soundmen look at me with raised eyebrow.

I feel that our situations are the same. The reason is, if I play quieter then I am holding back energy and not getting the same tone that I'd normally get at full volume, similar to your guitar amp having a sweeter tome at higher volumes.

The problem is, the venue and PA may not support those kinds of volumes while having the total sound to the audience still be balanced and in control. So it ends up being a compromise.

At the Flaming Bird for example there are no live drums. There's a reason for that. I was killing the room...lol

I usually always give the sound guy the benefit of the doubt in these cases, within reason of course, I use my judgement because I've also dealt with many sound guys that were just retarded.

One time a guy didn't like the sound he was getting out of my Ludwig kick drum (a drum that I was using successfully 4 times a week playing shows at the time), so when I came back he did me a favor he said by cutting a mic hole in the front head. Needless to say I now know what it's like to contemplate murder.

Also I then realized the sound guy isn't always right, so I guage the situations case by case. But usually the sound guys around here are pretty good.

Someone else can give you the "scientific" reasons, what do I know, I'm no musician, I'm just the drummer.

[clinton]

oh don't even get me started on the "hole in the head" thing....I've contemplated murder on several occassions due to this.

[Mathieu Benoit]

oh don't even get me started on the "hole in the head" thing....I've contemplated murder on several occassions due to this.

My point is not all soundmen are perfect, but usually when they say something is too loud it's because it is, and not because they are being crabby or anything.

[clinton]

the best sound I have ever gotten, from what I recall anyway, was Sean Boyer at Elwoods, Malcolm at The Imperial and Tom at Saint John High. Remember doing sound for that one Tom?

[Malcolm Boyce]

Sometimes loud can work and sometimes it can't. If I'm in a venue with enough PA, and the style of music allows it, you can rock out all you want.

The simplest example of when you will be asked to turn down is when there just plain isn't enough PA to get other things above your own noise. Believe it or not, a 50 watt guitar amp will clobber most medium size PAs for level in that range of frequencies. Another thing you need to remember is that the "sound guy's" job is to attempt to deliver even sound to all the seats. Your amp may sound great with you at a certain position near it, but it isn't designed to deliver that tone from a distance over a wide area like a PA is.

Another example of too loud amp, is when your guitar amp is bleeding into every open vocal mic on stage. This is when in trying to get vocal up in the PA, we get more guitar than vocal. This is especially unfortunate because what we are getting out front is not the guitar tone you want, but the sound of it bleeding into several open mics at a distance from your amp. Not entirely the sound you're going for either.

From an audience perspective, there is noting less "your tone" than an amp just spilling around the room mixing with everything else clear and in the PA. If you can get a good sound at a reasonable volume, and have it reproduced by a "pro", the audience will more likely get to hear what you are going for in the first place.

Hope this helps make sense of some of it for you. More questions?

[roachie]

I used to think that "no stage volume" ie. amp mods, electric drums, direct bass into the system, was a soundman's wet dream, 'till I heard that setup in a small room like O'leary's... the band had absolutely no balls, and sounded like shit.

Whenever I mix, and say the bass player is cranked on stage, I tell him that muting their channel makes no difference because they're not it the P.A. They always turn down so that I have at least SOME control.

Depends on the room and the rig I guess, but as a guitar player, I totally agree that certain volumes create certain tones, ya just gotta meet half-way.

[Jef]

I usually always give the sound guy the benefit of the doubt in these cases, within reason of course, I use my judgement because I've also dealt with many sound guys that were just retarded.

Speaking as a non-retarded sound guy, there are a couple tricks to keeping that real cool tone while not blasting too loud beyond the PA's capabilities.
You could use a power soak on the guitar amp. This goes between the amp and the speakers and 'absorbs' much of the volume while letting the amp run at a hotter level.
Another thing is if the guitar player needs to have the level up where it can be heard louder than all the other instruments, you could position the cabinet closer to the guitar player and pointed toward his/her head.
I know a couple of guitar players who use wedge shaped speaker cabinets set on the floor in front of them like a stage monitor. This works extremely well and usually they can turn up as loud as they want without adversely affecting the FOH mix or the other performers on stage.

[humeurs]

Depends on the room and the rig I guess, but as a guitar player, I totally agree that certain volumes create certain tones, ya just gotta meet half-way.

Sounds about right to me...
But compromise can sometimes affect exactly what you want. Which is what Riders are for, correct? Mics the band suggests?

Like Big Sugar ... how in hell does ANYONE mix for that band??
I loved seeing them live and most of that was because I wanted to feel the guitars. I had to wear earplugs, but how does one mix for how bloody loud his amps are?

Which poses this question....
Should the sound person get the final say as he or she is the one who should know the room, or conversely the band knows HOW they should sound. Where can one draw the line?

I had a HORRIBLE experience once at an ECMA gig that I made compromises to because this was on TV, etc ...

It was also the dumbest thing I could have done as these guy were incompetent and we played aweful as a result. I swore I would never do it again.
Later that evening the band 'Contrived' told the sound guys they were using their gear the way they wanted and they sounded GREAT.

Just my thoughts on it.

Chris

[Malcolm Boyce]

As Roach said, it's all about give and take. Every situation requires it's own assessment.

I know as a live sound tech, I never take the decision away from the artist, but I will lay it out for them in terms they can understand. "If you want the audience to hear the vocals at all, you will need to turn down some.... Your call..." Another one is if asked the classic "Howz it sound?" I'll reply... "I'm just mixing around the bass amp."

Not all situations are equal. As I've said time and time again, I'd rather a show be a little louder and good, than a little quieter and suck.

[RoadDog]

This stage volume thingy opens up the debate of sound 'reinforcement' vs having a true 'mixing' gig. venue size, audience demographic and PA headroom which is spelled BUDGET all come into play here. Respect for your house mixer's 'professional' opinion should come into the radar as well. You are, or are not, in capable hands [ears], and in this city it's a crap shoot, sigh... you've gotten me started... stay tuned as I have to turn the burgers...