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Postby Jef » Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:28 am

oddioguy wrote:
...Got the 3" ABS filled with sand or anything?


Nope, they're empty. I don't hear any resonance or anything from them... but now that you mentioned it I'll probably think I hear something :!: .
...you know that's going to bother me now...
...hmmm...where can I get a bucket of sand?
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Postby oddioguy » Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:32 am

Jef wrote:
oddioguy wrote:
...Got the 3" ABS filled with sand or anything?


Nope, they're empty. I don't hear any resonance or anything from them... but now that you mentioned it I'll probably think I hear something :!: .
...you know that's going to bother me now...
...hmmm...where can I get a bucket of sand?

Relax! :lol:
If there was a problem, it would have manifested itself in the mix on Power Overwhelming...and I didn't hear any problems with it.
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Postby Alain Benoit » Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:44 am

Jef wrote:This is my little work station. Notice the Tannoy Active Reveal near field monitors? Nothing but good things to say about them. Speaker stands are made from 3" ABS plumbing pipe with a toilet flange screwed to a double thick 3/4'plywood top and base. Got that idea out of a recording magazine (cheap, but effective).


Fill 'em. Your stands should weigh more than your monitors.
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Postby Alain Benoit » Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:54 am

Jef wrote:
U1176 wrote: ...do you have access to a Disstressor?
This is one of the three ultimate 'punch through a thick mix' metal guitar/vocal comps. In this situation nothing would work better in my opinion.


Thanks for your reply, U1176.
I don't have access to a Distressor (nor have I ever heard of one up until now). But I did google a look see and did a little reading:
http://www.empiricallabs.com/distdes.html
$1300.00 US. A little outside the budget right now for the home studio.
From what I've read so far it seems as this unit adds a little bit of 'vintage warmth' to the sound.
I did try the Antares VST plug-in (that emulates a tube sound) and ran a bunch of different settings but I wasn't too happy with the results I got so I abandoned that idea.



I am afraid that you may have misunderstood the strongpoints of the distressor. Its aim is not to 'add warmth' but to emulate through digital control a variety of classic compressor/limiter/levelling amps via various settings. As people discovered these after its release they became published. For example settings for an 1176 BF with all ratio buttons pushed in was__________________.
Dave Derr who founded Empirical Labs and designed these products used to design for Eventide. If you ever meet him he is an odd sort of fella in a very brilliant way. When I last saw him at an AES convention he looked like John McEnroe circa 1982 after a bad blow bender. Maybe its all the toxic waste in Jersey but he is one smart ass dude.
$1,300.00 may seem like alot but for alot of people this unit is a desert island compressor. Although I prefer another for most uses, when it comes to metal mixes this one is the ticket to give important tracks their home.
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Postby Jef » Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:32 pm

U1176 wrote:..."I am afraid that you may have misunderstood the strongpoints of the distressor"...
..$1,300.00 may seem like alot but for alot of people this unit is a desert island compressor. Although I prefer another for most uses, when it comes to metal mixes this one is the ticket to give important tracks their home.

I understand what you are saying, U1176. But my little home studio is basically a hobby thing and I don't have the $$ to invest into genre specific gear. I may not have another metal band project to mix for a long time. I have to set priorities for new studio gadgets that I purchase. For right now, it will have to go on my wish list.
I do welcome any insight you may have on improving things by using some of the more basic & conventional methods.
U1176 wrote:..."Fill 'em. Your stands should weigh more than your monitors.

Thanks, this is something I CAN take care of. After the tide goes down, I'll take my bucket and walk down to the beach. (nope... can't afford that good store-bought sand.. ;-) )
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Postby weatherstation audio » Sun Feb 11, 2007 6:30 pm

One of the cheapest and most natural sounding vocal effects is the double track vocals... this can really thickin' things up in the mix !

The 2 x vocals recorded must be consitently performed by the singer.

oddioguy wrote:u1176 or Malcolm may have some suggestions....


I like 80's metal too :shock:
in smaller quantities though, or I'll overdose...
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Postby Alain Benoit » Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:09 pm

Jef wrote: I understand what you are saying, U1176. But my little home studio is basically a hobby thing and I don't have the $$ to invest into genre specific gear. I may not have another metal band project to mix for a long time. I have to set priorities for new studio gadgets that I purchase. For right now, it will have to go on my wish list.
I do welcome any insight you may have on improving things by using some of the more basic & conventional methods.


In that case you might wanna check out
this thread.
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Postby oddioguy » Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:12 pm

weatherstation audio wrote:One of the cheapest and most natural sounding vocal effects is the double track vocals... this can really thickin' things up in the mix !

The 2 x vocals recorded must be consitently performed by the singer.

oddioguy wrote:u1176 or Malcolm may have some suggestions....


I like 80's metal too :shock:
in smaller quantities though, or I'll overdose...

Wasn't trying to cut you out, WSA...I just tend to think of you as more of an acoustic / mor type guy. :oops:
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:32 pm

weatherstation audio wrote:One of the cheapest and most natural sounding vocal effects is the double track vocals... this can really thickin' things up in the mix !

The 2 x vocals recorded must be consitently performed by the singer.
I agree with Marc that a properly executed double track by a weaker vocalist can really help make somethng more out of something less.

This isn't the same thing as some pan delay, pseudo stereo effect. The doubling of the performance produces an effect caused by the hit and miss of the same tonality in the same voicing. People rarely sing with identical tone, and that's the beauty of a good double track.

It's a lot cheaper than outboard gear as well.
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Postby macrae11 » Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:41 pm

Well i gotta jump in on this, and say wicked job man. Stellar playing and great production as well. Great guitar and bass tones. They fit together very well without stepping on each to much, which is a tough thing to do with those meaty guitars. I'm not much of a metal head but i play one in the studio sometimes w/ u1176.

As far as my $0.02 about the production, the Antares Tube = BS.
It has never improved anything i've ever heard it on.

I would try going back to autotune some parts and maybe even adding some light distortion on the vocals. You could use a plugin like AmpFarm, or reamp out to a guitar amp with some drive on it. You can then blend that with the orginal track to the desired amount of saturation and grit. When done right it can add some great intensity to a track.

Also sometimes a series of short delays makes a vocal seem more up front and in your face than verb, while still adding some space.

Also are the kick and snare sampled or heavily edited? I know generally for metal heavy editing is the order of the day, but there are some tricks to making them come more alive and not seem so 2 dimensional.

You could try using a couple of different samples instead of the same constant hits all through the song. Also try vary the volume of the drums from part to part, verse to chorus, bridge to prechorus etc, sometimes even in extreme amounts.
Also maybe fatten up the drums a bit. You can do this with some judicious EQ or paralell compression works well too. These tricks will work even if they're not samples as well.

If you want to listen to some of the most kick ass drum tones that don't have that "typical" metal sound check out Lamb of God. There drum sounds are unreal.

Anyways take it or leave it, I don't really know what i'm talking about, but thought i'd share, and anyone can feel free to add or subtract to/from my meanderings
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Postby Jef » Sun Feb 11, 2007 10:31 pm

weatherstation audio wrote:One of the cheapest and most natural sounding vocal effects is the double track vocals... this can really thickin' things up in the mix !

Ah yes, I've done a lot of experimenting with double tracking, and sometimes it works well and sometimes it don't. Truth be known, that recording does have the vocals double tracked. It helped a lot but still it could use some improvement.

Here's a little project I'm working on for Yvonne Lloyd (Bunn).
http://www.box.net/public/static/247t0bovvi.mp3
She's doing a children's album (mostly for her family). I double tracked all the vocal parts on this and it really brought out the blend especialy in the harmony lines. She did all her own harmonies so that helped with the blend too.
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Postby Jef » Sun Feb 11, 2007 10:43 pm

macrae11 wrote:Well i gotta jump in on this, and say wicked job man. Stellar playing and great production as well. Great guitar and bass tones. They fit together very well without stepping on each to much, which is a tough thing to do with those meaty guitars. I'm not much of a metal head but i play one in the studio sometimes w/ u1176.

Thank you

macrae11 wrote:As far as my $0.02 about the production, the Antares Tube = BS. It has never improved anything I've ever heard it on.

I tend to agree with you there...

macrae11 wrote: I would try going back to autotune some parts and maybe even adding some light distortion on the vocals. You could use a plugin like AmpFarm, or reamp out to a guitar amp with some drive on it. You can then blend that with the original track to the desired amount of saturation and grit. When done right it can add some great intensity to a track.

This worked well on the growly parts... but the clean vocals it didn't help much.

macrae11 wrote:Also are the kick and snare sampled or heavily edited?

Heavily edited.

macrae11 wrote:If you want to listen to some of the most kick ass drum tones that don't have that "typical" metal sound check out Lamb of God. There drum sounds are unreal.

Thanks, I'll give them a listen
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Postby Jef » Sun Feb 11, 2007 10:56 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:...a properly executed double track by a weaker vocalist can really help make something more out of something less.
This isn't the same thing as some pan delay, pseudo stereo effect. The doubling of the performance produces an effect caused by the hit and miss of the same tonality in the same voicing. People rarely sing with identical tone, and that's the beauty of a good double track.

The pan delay, pseudo stereo effect does work some of the time. I generally use that technique only as a last resort when actual double tracking can't be achieved. Not all musicians can be consistent enough to get a good take ...twice >>> (hehehe).
What I've done a few times in the past is to clone a track and then drag it a few ms out of phase before panning them left & right. It works well in the stereo field but it gets a little phasey when you bring it up in mono.
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Postby Alain Benoit » Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:05 am

macrae11 wrote:If you want to listen to some of the most kick ass drum tones that don't have that "typical" metal sound check out Lamb of God. There drum sounds are unreal.



The drum sound on Overkill's Horrorscope was my fave metal drum sound for over ten years until LOG came around.

Don't go by the 'on air' mix of their performance on "The Conan O'Brian Show" last Friday though.

Their last album Sacrament has garnered them alot of attention including a Grammy Nomination.

Myself and Macrae are going to see them in Montreal. Bought 4 tickets yesterday. We'll let you guys know how they were and how much gear we come back with.
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Postby oddioguy » Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:22 am

Jef wrote:
macrae11 wrote:If you want to listen to some of the most kick ass drum tones that don't have that "typical" metal sound check out Lamb of God. There drum sounds are unreal.

Thanks, I'll give them a listen


Shall I send you a tune or two? :twisted:
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Postby weatherstation audio » Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:15 am

oddioguy wrote:I just tend to think of you as more of an acoustic type guy


yep, absolutely... I do get pigeonholed into that quite a bit.

although, my last attempts to rangle a heavy sound was from the local 'Next to Red' rockers... this proved to be somewhat of a out of the element sound for me.

take a listen... I think you'll like ?
http://gearslutz.com/board/attachment.p ... 1139523242
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Postby Jef » Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:02 pm

oddioguy wrote:...Shall I send you a tune or two? :twisted:

Yes, please do.
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Postby Alain Benoit » Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:25 pm

Careful you might get converted. Seriously though its bands that are this good that do end up converting people to the genre.
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Postby oddioguy » Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:48 pm

Jef wrote:
oddioguy wrote:...Shall I send you a tune or two? :twisted:

Yes, please do.

Going to send it to your Hotmail, assuming that you haven't used up your alotted 1Gig of space.
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Postby Jef » Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:59 pm

oddioguy wrote:...Going to send it to your Hotmail, assuming that you haven't used up your alotted 1Gig of space.


Yup, Yup... go for it.
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Postby weatherstation audio » Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:32 pm

Hi Jef,

good work on the tracks... the sounds are way more mature than what usual 17 year olds I've heard in my studio experience.

as I previously posted above...
gearslutz.com is a good place to have your mixes critiqued or ripped apart... I posted the 'Next to Red' track with positive results, this yielded suggestions of a better mix from other studio rats on that board.

the other obvious thing that stands out in your mix is the somewhat compressed snare sound... I'd tempt to breath a bit of life and attack back into that snare sound... the drumagog trigger/sampling program could help you out in this department... sampling some snare sounds from whatever source you can, and layering that into the snare mix.

once again... keep up the good work of exposing our local talent.


Marc
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Postby Jef » Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:27 pm

Thank you Marc.
This is a great forum! I don't usually get a lot of people hearing my work while it's still in progress. After it's done I get a lot of 'hind sight' suggestions (not much help then). I much appreciate all of your suggestions and comments.
and thanks for the gearslutz tip.
...Jef...
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Postby collide » Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:40 pm

okay. we are now in stores. i'ma post a thread...
So, we need air to live, but we can't hold it in?... We're screwed.

https://www.facebook.com/TheAlleyRehearsals?fref=ts (Jamspace and Recording)
http://www.curbside.bandcamp.com (2 free albums)
http://www.myspace.com/stevefudge (acoustic)
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