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Re: It's a brave new world of free.

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:29 pm

Jef wrote:
Malcolm Boyce wrote: Is everyone who's using one of those YouTube to .mp3 things not doing anything wrong? So everyone I catch giving me music converted from YouTube clips for events isn't doing anything wrong? Some dance events I work would pay more for one pair of shoes than to purchase proper copies of their music, but instead continue to use these workarounds because it's easy.
:roll: That doesn't sound like a big industry making unlawful money by pirating Billions of dollars worth of revenue at all. It's more like private individuals making personal copies of music that was legitimately obtained (from YouTube via advertisers). I think you and Andrew are speaking of two separate things.

Step 1 - Go to http://www.google.ca
Step 2 - Start typing in "YouTube" as a search.
Step 3 - Notice what the first "autosuggestion" is made directly below the word "YouTube".

What is that "service" Google is providing to musicians again?
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Re: It's a brave new world of free.

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:38 pm

Jef wrote:I think you and Andrew are speaking of two separate things.[/color]

Malcolm Boyce wrote: The monies being paid from YouTube are paltry in comparison to the profits being generated for YouTube and the service providers selling devices, and the bandwidth to get the content to the end user.
Andrew wrote: "They're providing a service which the artist pays for, which may be too much that's certainly up for discussion"

Trying to equate what record companies, agents, managers, ticket vendors, and venues do for an artist to YouTube and other sites is something that has been repeated many times and is a weak attempt at best to excuse what these parasitic corporations have done to creative industries, all while describing their existence as fragile and above regulation.

If only commercial broadcasters had thought of that years ago, think of how radio would be flourishing...... :roll:
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Re: It's a brave new world of free.

Postby Jef » Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:23 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:What is that "service" Google is providing to musicians again?
There will always be ways to circumvent things, that isn't going to change... (ever since putting a microphone in front of your radio speakers).
Still the source of the material is coming from a legitimate site in which advertisers pay the rights holders for every hit that site gets. Whether they listen live or mp3 it for later use, still counts as a hit to the website.


Malcolm Boyce wrote:Trying to equate what record companies, agents, managers, ticket vendors, and venues do for an artist to YouTube and other sites is something that has been repeated many times.
...and probably for good reason. I mean all large corporations are geared to maximize profits for themselves, not the artists.
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Re: It's a brave new world of free.

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:11 pm

Jef wrote:
Malcolm Boyce wrote:What is that "service" Google is providing to musicians again?
There will always be ways to circumvent things, that isn't going to change... (ie putting a microphone in front of your radio speakers).
Still the source of the material is coming from a legitimate site in which advertisers pay the rights holders for every hit that site gets. Whether they listen live or mp3 it for later use, still counts as a hit to the website.
You're ignoring the fact that this isn't just a possibility exploited by the public, but Google suggesting the copying of audio from YouTube clips and is an obvious indication of the sincerity of their intent to collect $ for artists. YouTube=Google... Yes, going to YouTube and streaming from legit clips can generate some royalties for artists. Google specifically promoting the way to circumvent actually visiting the site to stream by way of converting the audio to a file is incredibly obvious to anyone paying attention.

IMO, a more appropriate comparison instead of a microphone in front of your radio speakers, would be if radio broadcasters started giving out copies of music that they advertised on their radio broadcasts. You could use all the same arguments that the pro-"sharing"' side uses...
-"They weren't gonna buy it anyway"
-"It's great promotion for the artists"
-"It's not stealing, we're just sharing"

Jef wrote:
Malcolm Boyce wrote:Trying to equate what record companies, agents, managers, ticket vendors, and venues do for an artist to YouTube and other sites is something that has been repeated many times....
...and probably for good reason. I mean all large corporations are geared to maximize profits for themselves, not the artists.
Record companies profiting by way of developing artists into a workable business venture is certainly worth more to an artist's well being financially and otherwise than Google and the other parasitic operations who have never shown good faith in anything to do with musical and other content creators. All of these arms length operators took advantage of not having to be accountable to anyone early on, and now are arguing that their "value" is worth all the harm they are causing, which is, of course, BS.

In spite of the clever talking points of how evil the recording business is/was, it's important to remember that almost 100% of the successful musical acts that we know of would have been no where near as financially successful without the machine as it was. The opposite is being said about what the "IT" industry has done to the "music business". It is pretty clear where the line between the two are.
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Re: It's a brave new world of free.

Postby Jef » Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:44 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:... almost 100% of the successful musical acts that we know of would have been no where near as financially successful without the machine as it was.

Indeed... but if that machine is broken, or becomes obsolete, shouldn't we be looking at alternative machines?
Metaphorically speaking... "there used to be companies that manufactured wooden wheel spokes, the ones still in business now also manufacture aluminum rims".

Even if YouTube type isn't an ideal business model, it is only one example of using broadband internet to generate revenue.
Instead of unilaterally condemning the technology (google, torrents et al) because it can be used illegally, why not ask "what can this technology do to help the industry". And put smart people to work to answer that. If the legal sites could be made more appealing and the pirate sites more cumbersome, that might help swing the trends the other way. Instead of trying to thwart innovation and technology by bricking devices, and instead of fighting costly legal battles, why not put that effort into making the legal methods of obtaining music more appealing than stealing it?
There will always be corrupt people (& businesses) who find ways to defraud and pirate music. But if the incentive to use illegal entities becomes diminished, less people will use those services.

As it is right now, the war on piracy is about as effective as the war on drugs. It ain't working. There needs to be an alternate approach other than sinking money and resources into something that only benefits lawyers and corporations.
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Re: It's a brave new world of free.

Postby Jef » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:33 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote: Yes, going to YouTube and streaming from legit clips can generate some royalties for artists. Google specifically promoting the way to circumvent actually visiting the site to stream by way of converting the audio to a file is incredibly obvious to anyone paying attention.
Yeah, I checked it out and you are wrong about that too. To use the mp3 convert feature, you still need to have the URL from the YouTube clip. Which means a visit to the Youtube video in question and it still gets registered as a hit to the site (should be "incredibly obvious to anyone paying attention") 8-) .
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Re: It's a brave new world of free.

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:41 pm

Jef wrote:
Malcolm Boyce wrote:... almost 100% of the successful musical acts that we know of would have been no where near as financially successful without the machine as it was.

Indeed... but if that machine is broken, or becomes obsolete, shouldn't we be looking at alternative machines?
Metaphorically speaking... "there used to be companies that manufactured wooden wheel spokes, the ones still in business now also manufacture aluminum rims".

Even if YouTube type isn't an ideal business model, it is only one example of using broadband internet to generate revenue.
Instead of unilaterally condemning the technology (google, torrents et al) because it can be used illegally, why not ask "what can this technology do to help the industry". And put smart people to work to answer that. If the legal sites could be made more appealing and the pirate sites more cumbersome, that might help swing the trends the other way. Instead of trying to thwart innovation and technology by bricking devices, and instead of fighting costly legal battles, why not put that effort into making the legal methods of obtaining music more appealing than stealing it?
There will always be corrupt people (& businesses) who find ways to defraud and pirate music. But if the incentive to use illegal entities becomes diminished, less people will use those services.

As it is right now, the war on piracy is about as effective as the war on drugs. It ain't working. There needs to be an alternate approach other than sinking money and resources into something that only benefits lawyers and corporations.

Ummmmm.... No.
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Re: It's a brave new world of free.

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:52 pm

Jef wrote:
Malcolm Boyce wrote: Yes, going to YouTube and streaming from legit clips can generate some royalties for artists. Google specifically promoting the way to circumvent actually visiting the site to stream by way of converting the audio to a file is incredibly obvious to anyone paying attention.
Yeah, I checked it out and you are wrong about that too. To use the mp3 convert feature, you still need to have the URL from the YouTube clip. Which means a visit to the Youtube video in question and it still gets registered as a hit to the site (should be "incredibly obvious to anyone paying attention") 8-) .
Before you go rushing to spend any more energy on proving how "wrong" I am, you should try to understand my point a little better.

Unless you need to visit YouTube to register a "hit" every time before playing that mp3, my issue is very much correct. YouTube is not a video or audio download site, but rather a site from which to play this media, which is the only way it can generate any monies for content creators. Google promoting a way to enjoy this content without generating royalties is as clear of a conflict of interest as there can be.
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Re: It's a brave new world of free.

Postby Jef » Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:38 pm

I do understand your point Malcolm, It is not my mission to disprove you or anybody else here, and it's a slow work day so I'm in no rush. It's the big picture that I'm trying to point out. The fact that people can shift format of music that was legally obtained, is and has been going on for ever. Yes, yes, yes... it is illegal and you don't like it. Point taken.
But not everybody who uses the YouTube service use the mp3 converter. Some of them stream live to their devices. and even the ones who do mp3 it are at least giving one hit to the website, which wouldn't even occur at all if obtained from an illegal file sharing site. Advertisers are paying the content owners... but maybe not enough?
I'm not saying that YouTube is going to solve all of the issues.. or any. I'm just saying that artists can have other than traditional ways of making money and more focus needs to be put there.
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Re: It's a brave new world of free.

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:39 pm

What Google is doing is akin to putting a penny in the artists' right pocket at the same time they are taking a dollar out of the left, all this while trying to make it seem like they are doing something good for artists. You keep talking like content creators should just shut up and be happy with the penny they are being given, instead of focusing on the greater wrong that is being handed down. Better yet, instead of trying to get the existing laws enforceable, the artists need to focus on creating new streams of business... The fact is, some simple methods of fixing a huge majority of the problem could be easily put in place, but Google and other huge profit generating corporations have used propaganda to make sure those solutions are difficult to impossible to come into being. That's right folks... We just might break the Internet.

Jef... Before we go any further with any of this, I will ask that you answer one simple question for me. Why does Google auto-suggest "YouTube to mp3 converter" at the top of it's search engine when you just begin typing YouTube? You seem to be suggesting that they are not a huge part of the problem and that it is the end users' that content creators have a beef with. This is a tactic that has been used for years, pitting consumers against artists to draw attention away from where the real problem is. The truth is, Google is not only allowing piracy, they are promoting it. That is what needs to change the most, not people's listening habits, or the music business in general.

The "Music Business was/is broken" crowd are usually people that don't, or never had any actual proximity to it in the first place and are therefore talking out of their butts about it. I know no one that I've worked with in the industry are slapping their hands together and saying "Glad that's gone"... yet it seems to be an idea that is promoted by the "sharing" community. The fact is, if you removed online piracy from having ever happened, the industry would have certainly continued to flourish, an inconvenient fact for those that want you to believe it's not at fault to the extent that it actually is. As Andrew already pointed out, business is down, but music consumption is huge these days.

I don't need anyone to point out what the big picture is to me. I am all too aware of how dismal the state of things are, hence my original post in this thread. No amount of "glass is half full" talk is going to change my view of what needs to be done to fix this wrongdoing, and that isn't for artists to put up a website to sell T-Shirts, Posters, and give away their music from.
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Re: It's a brave new world of free.

Postby Jef » Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:00 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:Jef... Before we go any further with any of this, I will ask that you answer one simple question for me. Why does Google auto-suggest "YouTube to mp3 converter" at the top of it's search engine when you just begin typing YouTube? You seem to be suggesting that they are not a huge part of the problem and that it is the end users' that content creators have a beef with. This is a tactic that has been used for years, pitting consumers against artists to draw attention away from where the real problem is. The truth is, Google is not only allowing piracy, they are promoting it. That is what needs to change the most, not people's listening habits, or the music business in general.


Malcolm... I get you, and what you are saying is definitely valid. I am not disputing that. But just suppose that google and other mega-corporations can't be curtailed... and if the current method of playing "whack-a-mole" with pirate sites doesn't accomplish anything... as passionate as you are about this subject, doesn't that worry you?
I don't think I have anything else to add to the topic. But I will continue reading if anybody else wants to chime in with some ideas and opinions.
Oh, and to answer your question... it's user based.
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Re: It's a brave new world of free.

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:20 pm

Jef wrote:Oh, and to answer your question... it's user based.
Don't insult my intelligence. I know how Google skews it's searches based on user data. More importantly, and broad reaching, is the fact that Google produces suggestions and search results that appeal to it's best interests, read: long term profit. I also know that everyone, regardless of their search patterns, receives this little direction when they type in "YouTube". I have never used, searched for, or asked Google for information about mp3 conversion of YouTube clips. I have however done countless searches for YouTube + Artist/Clip and yet on my laptop with me logged into Google, or on any other browser and computer without anyone "logged in" to Google I've tried, typing in YouTube produced the top suggestion of "YouTube to mp3 converter".
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Re: It's a brave new world of free.

Postby Jef » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:24 am

OK, one last post on the topic, just to not leave it hanging in a bad way...

Sorry Malcolm it wasn't my intention to insult your intelligence. Just giving the best answer I could find to your question.
If millions people key in the search words "Youtube to mp3 convertor", it's obviously going to go to the top of the search suggestions.
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Re: It's a brave new world of free.

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:37 am

Jef wrote:...
If millions people key in the search words "Youtube to mp3 convertor", it's obviously going to go to the top of the search suggestions.
That's entirely my point Jef. In spite of it's PR of being the tech good guys, Google regularly "modifies" auto-completes that it decides are inappropriate or bad for us for whatever reasons it agrees with at the time. Sometimes it's a person or group asking for that removal from their site, and sometimes it's just Google doing their thing. The fact that they intentionally allow this one by is a solid indicator of their intentions and business practices.

The old arguments for "why should google block "Torrent" from auto-complete since it isn't always used for pirating" doesn't hold any water with "YouTube to mp3 converter". YouTube=Google and in spite of it attempting to appear more legit, they have an awfully long way to go before it becomes a balanced method of generating remuneration for content creators.
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Re: It's a brave new world of free.

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:14 am

I download TV shows. But I also pay for Bell TV, and have a paid subscription to Netflix. I don't download music though, or movies. I also don't use pirated software.

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Re: It's a brave new world of free.

Postby macrae11 » Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:47 pm

I don't think it's a mortal sin, but I'm sure you've got enough other marks on your record to take you down either way.

I am curious as to why you draw the line there though. Of course TV producers are a lower life form but not that much lower than movie execs.
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Re: It's a brave new world of free.

Postby Scott DeVarenne » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:49 pm

I have never stolen anything. Ever. I have never lied, either. Ever!
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Re: It's a brave new world of free.

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:27 pm

macrae11 wrote:I am curious as to why you draw the line there though. Of course TV producers are a lower life form but not that much lower than movie execs.


I have been asking myself the same question since you guys started this thread... Seems kind of arbitrary, eh? I'm sure I have some kind of rationale whether it makes sense to anyone else or not. I guess I feel that I pay for all kinds of TV already and I'm not a fan of the scheduling or the fact that I need internet access to make it work.

For example: When I'm getting ready for a long drive with the kids, there's no way I'm going to pay the extra data charge to have them all watch Netflix off my phone's 4G. So I load up a bunch of TV shows on to the respective devices, and away we go. Some people might argue that kids should be reading books and sometimes they do. But I feel that it's for the safety of everyone on the road that I have a backup plan. As soon as Bell gives me unlimited WIFI in my van at a reasonable price, I will probably stop downloading things altogether.
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Re: It's a brave new world of free.

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:33 pm

Scott DeVarenne wrote:Patchouli stink nice.


Image
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Re: It's a brave new world of free.

Postby macrae11 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:23 am

I hate reopening old topics but I'm going to anyways. I haven't time over the last few weeks and now I have a few minutes but then I'll be offline for 10+ days so I'll just throw some stones and then leave. :-D

What prompted me was I'm part way through Jaron Laniers book "You Are Not A Gadget". I really think this book is a must read not just for anyone interested in this discussion but for anyone interested a discussion of e future of digital culture. He hits so many nails on the head he should start a contracting business. One of his ideas for a solution is similar to a Youtube type scenario but payments would be direct to the artist and instead of a company like Google hijacking all the revenues it would be an exchange regulated by the government. Fees would be paid for usage through your ISP which would be great for people like me who don't download much who subsidize hi transfer users.

I'll post some more thoughts once I'm back and I've finished the book.
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Re: It's a brave new world of free.

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:27 pm

macrae11 wrote:He hits so many nails on the head he could have framed a house.


Fixed.
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Re: It's a brave new world of free.

Postby macrae11 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:57 pm

I think he could frame several houses, hence should start his own business, not just work on one project. ;-)
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Re: It's a brave new world of free.

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:17 pm

macrae11 wrote:I think he could frame several houses, hence should start his own business, not just work on one project. ;-)


Contractor was too vague. What was I to imply that he was a contractor of?

Go to Antartica already and leave the internet to me for a few days. You can put out the fires I start when you get back. :twisted:
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Re: It's a brave new world of free.

Postby Crimson Chameleon » Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:04 pm

A couple of weeks ago I attended the Music Nova Scotia awards weekend in Cape Breton. The keynote address was presented by Peter Jenner. He's the original manager of the Pink Floyd and his talk was mainly about how he had no professional training as an artist manager and that that was a good thing because he wasn't tied down by the rules and industry standards.

Anyway, as interesting as his keynote address was, he also ran a panel discussion about audio streaming and revenue. Or I should say, he dominated the discussion. Most of the panelists appeared timid and nervous of saying too much or of going on record saying anything disparaging about the major record labels or other large corporations who profit off music and creativity. Mr. Jenner, on the other hand, pulled no punches and was very open about sharing his disgust of radio djs, major labels, governments, corporations, etc. Nonetheless, he did discuss quite a few interesting thoughts and ideas.

One point he made was that it does not make sense to treat online, digital music the same way we have treated physical forms of music (i.e., records, cassettes, cds). He also made some very interesting points about how we need much better organisation globally in order to track and collect the information about what music is being played/streamed/downloaded online. He claims that the large companies (which also would include SOCAN) are able to profit off a lack of information because unclaimed money sits in what he referred to as a "black box" which the companies get to keep because there is no information to track it back to the rightful recipient.

He currently manages Billy Bragg, but as he stated, if Billy's music is being downloaded in certain foreign countries as "Bill Brag" then the money does not get back to Billy Bragg himself. He seemed to speak quite poorly of Spain and China when it comes to distributing royalties.

I cannot recall all the details of everything he talked about so please don't get upset if I cannot repeat exactly what he said and please do not ask me to explain his position in finer detail. But nonetheless, it was a very interesting talk.

One thing I did get from his talk is that he says we need a new system for monitoring and managing online music. The old systems and methods simply will not work. He also said that the solution will not occur in our lifetime. Then again he's in his seventies so some of us might see some improvement. He said we need to develop something similar to the the banks. He said someone can go to any bank anywhere in the world and get money from their account (if they have money) so we should have some sort of global way of keeping track of an artists creation which could be tracked no matter what country the download is occurring in.

I would also like to point out too that we should not simply lump everyone who thinks music should be free into one big group. Not everyone in the world holds the same philosophical belief in such things as "intellectual property." When I worked at a university writing centre helping people write PhD theses as well as undergrad term papers, a frequent "problem" we ran into with foreign students was that they had no idea about citing sources because in their countries a thought cannot be owned. All knowledge is considered to belong to all humans and no thought can be considered to exist in isolation and is instead intricately connected with all other thoughts forming a beautiful whole that is our collective human culture.

Yes, a lot of youngsters in our neck of the woods are grabbing music for free to fill up their iPods, iPhones, etc, but aren't they just doing what our greedy capitalist religion and way of life is telling them to do, since profit is what is of utmost importance. Besides, there is too much music being made nowadays and most of it is redundant and it sucks. It's honestly not worth paying for anyways. Is this a case of supply and demand? There is so much music, nobody can possibly digest it all. We've flooded the market and so the value and price has almost completely dropped to nil. And yes, I am aware that this opinion might put us all out of work, but perhaps music, culture, and creativity should be more important than profits and money. Even if recorded music becomes monetarily worthless, won't the human spirit and drive to create still find ways of creating art? Then again, if we continue to allow the large corporations to enforce their legal rights to intellectual property the way they presently do, I feel like everything creative will eventually be owned by the company with the most money and the best lawyers and then we will truly have the death of art because every thought, idea, and means of expression will be copyrighted and owned.

I know I am rambling now. I don't have the answers. Just lots of questions and thoughts. Don't take anything I write here as my be all and end all stance or opinion. I'm struggling like the rest of you. However, I don't think the answer lies in waiting for the lawyers and corporations to figure stuff out, so until then I say let's continue to steal and pillage all that humans can create. As Paul Gauguin said, "Art is either plagiarism or revolution." And as Picasso may have said (or did he plagiarise this quotation?): "Good artists copy, great artists steal."

By tomorrow, I will likely have a different opinion. Don't quote me. But feel free to plagiarise anything I mentioned. Ha ha!

Here's an old but interesting article about so-called "intellectual property":
http://w2.eff.org/Misc/Publications/Joh ... ticle.html
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Re: It's a brave new world of free.

Postby Scott DeVarenne » Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:20 pm

I love the concept of music being free, if desired by the creators of said music. But I hate the thought of some entity, not involved in the creation of a piece of music, profiting (without explicit consent from the creators) just because that entity has positioned themselves through a technological business model, legal or otherwise, to do so. But anyway... Hi, Ian. It's nice to hear your thoughts on the matter.
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Scott DeVarenne
mr distant
 
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