Coverbands

Musical artists and their stuff...
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Postby clinton » Wed May 07, 2008 12:54 pm

sounds like music as math brother....
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Wed May 07, 2008 1:04 pm

Wow, I didn't expect this twist. I'd have to say that creativity is, in my opinion, a very big part of musicianship. I disagree with both of you guys, in that I find that it is an equal criteria to the rest. I don't feel it's another catagory at all. Nor do I feel that it's more important than the other two combined.

There must be some middle ground here.
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Postby clinton » Wed May 07, 2008 1:04 pm

Jef wrote:
Drumwaiter wrote:I'll revise my last statement a bit. I'm not going to say that you "can't" argue the point of better overall musicianship. But maybe that decision should come with the list of merits to back up the opinion. Sort of the way judges make decisions in sporting competitions.

That gives me an idea... Does anyone have any thoughts as to the what we'd be using as criteria to determine such an outcome?

I'm thinking:

Technical Ability
Creativity
Diversity

...and stuff like. Is there anything else we'd throw into the mix of how we all judge musicianship?


Why would you even put 'creativity' as a criteria for musicianship?
If you're ever looking for a job as a musician with a symphony, creating your own riffs just won't fly.
You had better be playing the parts exactly as they were written or else.
Technical Ability and Diversity are both qualities of musicianship, but creativity?
... nope, that's another category altogether.


I'm still chuckling over this post...
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Wed May 07, 2008 1:09 pm

I dunno... maybe he's conspiring to "get my goat". Unfortunately, I sold my goat a while back... :-P

Just teasing Jef, you're entitled to your opinions of course, as we all are. But do you really feel this way? Musicians don't only work in a context where replication is key, sometimes creation is necessary and welcomed.
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Wed May 07, 2008 1:15 pm

clinton wrote:I'm not sure why people are so offended by this topic, like Malcolm you seem completely put out by the opposing opinions, I don't get it.
The point I disagree with is one that wasn't presented as "opinion" on that other parallel thread to this one. The quote is:

adam wrote:On a more controversial note, I will absolutely defend the position that people who play covers exclusively are lesser musicians than those who write.


If looking at all genera of music and caliber of musician, that is about as ridiculous of a generalization as I can think of.

Being a "creative" musician is not being a "writer" of music necessarily.

"Lesser musicians"???
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Postby clinton » Wed May 07, 2008 1:20 pm

hahaha, yeah he does know the right words to push buttons (my first audio engineer pun....not that good I know), I'll give ya that.
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Wed May 07, 2008 1:23 pm

clinton wrote:sounds like music as math brother....


Sometimes, it just is... Make it what you make it.

clinton wrote:
Jef wrote:Why would you even put 'creativity' as a criteria for musicianship?
If you're ever looking for a job as a musician with a symphony, creating your own riffs just won't fly.
You had better be playing the parts exactly as they were written or else.
Technical Ability and Diversity are both qualities of musicianship, but creativity?
... nope, that's another category altogether.


I'm still chuckling over this post...


There are times where, as Jef points out, "creativity" would make you less of a "musician". Would I say all times... definitely not!
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Postby clinton » Wed May 07, 2008 1:24 pm

never would creativity make you less of a musican, maybe not an ideal "employee" but never less of a musician.
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Wed May 07, 2008 1:28 pm

Drumwaiter wrote:I'll revise my last statement a bit. I'm not going to say that you "can't" argue the point of better overall musicianship. But maybe that decision should come with the list of merits to back up the opinion. Sort of the way judges make decisions in sporting competitions.

That gives me an idea... Does anyone have any thoughts as to the what we'd be using as criteria to determine such an outcome?

I'm thinking:

Technical Ability
Creativity
Diversity

...and stuff like. Is there anything else we'd throw into the mix of how we all judge musicianship?
Unfortunately Matt, the more you broaden that list, the further you get away from the "definition" of what a musician actually is.

How far away is:

Stage presence.
Good looks.
Ability to get PR.

Would I want to play with someone who can do it all? Yes.

If going down the master list does Madonna have most of the qualities? Yes.

Is she a better musician?
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Wed May 07, 2008 1:33 pm

clinton wrote:never would creativity make you less of a musican, maybe not an ideal "employee" but never less of a musician.
Once again, you ignore a whole lot of people who play music more than you or I ever will, who fall into the category that I mention. They would take great offense to the "employee" only label.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Wed May 07, 2008 1:34 pm

clinton wrote:never would creativity make you less of a musican, maybe not an ideal "employee" but never less of a musician.


Aren't we able to excercise discretion? Why can't a creative player simply play what's called for. I'm sure I've seen it happen before. Just because you can be creative doesn't mean you'll always choose to be. A person with a bit of common sense is going to know the difference between playing in a jam, and playing in a structured setting.
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Postby clinton » Wed May 07, 2008 1:35 pm

they'd prolly also take offence to you suggesting that they are not engaging their personal creativity by playing music. You paint a stale picture of a musician.
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Wed May 07, 2008 1:35 pm

Drumwaiter wrote:Aren't we able to excercise discretion? Why can't a creative player simply play what's called for. I'm sure I've seen it happen before. Just because you can be creative doesn't mean you'll always choose to be. A person with a bit of common sense is going to know the difference between playing in a jam, and playing in a structured setting.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Wed May 07, 2008 1:40 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:Unfortunately Matt, the more you broaden that list, the further you get away from the "definition" of what a musician actually is.

How far away is:

Stage presence.
Good looks.
Ability to get PR.

Would I want to play with someone who can do it all? Yes.

If going down the master list does Madonna have most of the qualities? Yes.

Is she a better musician?


I wasn't going there Malcolm, I think the 3 criteria I mentioned sufficed, I was just wondering if I missed anything. The 3 things I mentioned had to do specifically with one's playing of the intrument and producing a sound out of that intended instrument.

Where you are going has more to do with a performer, and making money,ect... which is not mutually exclusive, granted... However you are right, that would be off topic for the purposes of this discussion.

But I'd love to hear more opinions, it makes my day at work go by faster. Thanks guys!
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Wed May 07, 2008 1:57 pm

Drumwaiter wrote:I wasn't going there Malcolm, I think the 3 criteria I mentioned sufficed, I was just wondering if I missed anything. The 3 things I mentioned had to do specifically with one's playing of the intrument and producing a sound out of that intended instrument.

Where you are going has more to do with a performer, and making money,ect... which is not mutually exclusive, granted... However you are right, that would be off topic for the purposes of this discussion.

But I'd love to hear more opinions, it makes my day at work go by faster. Thanks guys!
...and I'm with you on that Matt. That's why the "writers" are better "musicians" thing is off the list for me as well.

If being a non writer music makes you a "lesser musician", when do the "writers" become "better"? Is it only after they've written something or do they already have it before? Are they only better during the act of writing? How long after they write something are they better musicians, or do you have it forever after that? Are you only "better" when you play the music you wrote?

Once again, being a creative musician, and being a writer are two different things. I know many spectacularly creative musicians who are not "writers".
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Wed May 07, 2008 2:02 pm

clinton wrote:they'd prolly also take offence to you suggesting that they are not engaging their personal creativity by playing music. You paint a stale picture of a musician.
No, I'm merely discussing one aspect of it. You are talking like you've never watched someone try to recreate a wonderfully composed piece of music. That is not a "creative" process, but mostly a technical one. Is someone expressing a love for the music, and the experience? Most definitely, but is it part of the creative end of the musical spectrum?
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Postby RoadDog » Wed May 07, 2008 2:08 pm

I'll stir the pot... where does a group like Toto fit in? A Super Group of lesser musicians? I think not... LOL
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Wed May 07, 2008 2:13 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:If being a non writer music makes you a "lesser musician", when do the "writers" become "better"? Is it only after they've written something or do they already have it before? Are they only better during the act of writing? How long after they write something are they better musicians, or do you have it forever after that? Are you only "better" when you play the music you wrote?


Um... :-? Owww. Ice Cream headache....

When did being a musician become so complicated. :-(

I realize however that you're merely asking the questions that one would expect when everyone else stops making sense.

I still think that this whole competitive "better/worse" thing is totally gay, and not in the cool homosexual way either.

But if we must "grade" musicians let's at least include creativity in the mix, please? And let's not totally rule out technical ability, they are not so far a part that the can't live in the same performance.
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Wed May 07, 2008 2:15 pm

Drumwaiter wrote:But if we must "grade" musicians let's at least include creativity in the mix, please? And let's not totally rule out technical ability, ...
I do on both parts.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Wed May 07, 2008 2:18 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:
Drumwaiter wrote:But if we must "grade" musicians let's at least include creativity in the mix, please? And let's not totally rule out technical ability, ...
I do on both parts.


As do I. However I think people are trying to promote their criteria of choice a bti too much where I think that those 2 things are needed in relatively even doses.
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Postby clinton » Wed May 07, 2008 2:18 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:You are talking like you've never watched someone try to recreate a wonderfully composed piece of music.


you're taking quite a liberty paraphrasing for me but unfortanately you're completely off the mark. There are musicians who can play the exact same piece of music and it can be two completely different experiences. To simply receit a piece of music that you learned note for note without putting your mark on it (be it only emotional) is boring and happens far more often than you appear to want to admit.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Wed May 07, 2008 2:19 pm

RoadDog wrote:I'll stir the pot... where does a group like Toto fit in? A Super Group of lesser musicians? I think not... LOL


They don't count because they are obviously from outer space. 8-)
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Wed May 07, 2008 2:23 pm

clinton wrote:
To simply receit a piece of music that you learned note for note without putting your mark on it (be it only emotional) is boring and happens far more often than you appear to want to admit.


You got my attention here. I think subconsciously and without meaning to, we all put our own personal stamp. I play like me, because I'm me. No one else is me, we all have different instincts. I'm very cool with that.
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Postby clinton » Wed May 07, 2008 2:25 pm

that makes you a musician Matt.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Wed May 07, 2008 2:30 pm

clinton wrote:that makes you a musician Matt.


Really? Hmm... that's good. Because I was worried for a second that playing in a cover band had somehow robbed me of that title.

Even when I'm playing covers, I try to put as much of my own emotions into my performance as possible. Bottom line is that I'm still trying to express a feeling, because thatr's what I use music for, whether I do it through someone else's music or my own shit... that's my objective.
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