Jef wrote:Drumwaiter wrote:I'll revise my last statement a bit. I'm not going to say that you "can't" argue the point of better overall musicianship. But maybe that decision should come with the list of merits to back up the opinion. Sort of the way judges make decisions in sporting competitions.
That gives me an idea... Does anyone have any thoughts as to the what we'd be using as criteria to determine such an outcome?
I'm thinking:
Technical Ability
Creativity
Diversity
...and stuff like. Is there anything else we'd throw into the mix of how we all judge musicianship?
Why would you even put 'creativity' as a criteria for musicianship?
If you're ever looking for a job as a musician with a symphony, creating your own riffs just won't fly.
You had better be playing the parts exactly as they were written or else.
Technical Ability and Diversity are both qualities of musicianship, but creativity?
... nope, that's another category altogether.
The point I disagree with is one that wasn't presented as "opinion" on that other parallel thread to this one. The quote is:clinton wrote:I'm not sure why people are so offended by this topic, like Malcolm you seem completely put out by the opposing opinions, I don't get it.
adam wrote:On a more controversial note, I will absolutely defend the position that people who play covers exclusively are lesser musicians than those who write.
clinton wrote:sounds like music as math brother....
clinton wrote:Jef wrote:Why would you even put 'creativity' as a criteria for musicianship?
If you're ever looking for a job as a musician with a symphony, creating your own riffs just won't fly.
You had better be playing the parts exactly as they were written or else.
Technical Ability and Diversity are both qualities of musicianship, but creativity?
... nope, that's another category altogether.
I'm still chuckling over this post...
Unfortunately Matt, the more you broaden that list, the further you get away from the "definition" of what a musician actually is.Drumwaiter wrote:I'll revise my last statement a bit. I'm not going to say that you "can't" argue the point of better overall musicianship. But maybe that decision should come with the list of merits to back up the opinion. Sort of the way judges make decisions in sporting competitions.
That gives me an idea... Does anyone have any thoughts as to the what we'd be using as criteria to determine such an outcome?
I'm thinking:
Technical Ability
Creativity
Diversity
...and stuff like. Is there anything else we'd throw into the mix of how we all judge musicianship?
Once again, you ignore a whole lot of people who play music more than you or I ever will, who fall into the category that I mention. They would take great offense to the "employee" only label.clinton wrote:never would creativity make you less of a musican, maybe not an ideal "employee" but never less of a musician.
clinton wrote:never would creativity make you less of a musican, maybe not an ideal "employee" but never less of a musician.
Drumwaiter wrote:Aren't we able to excercise discretion? Why can't a creative player simply play what's called for. I'm sure I've seen it happen before. Just because you can be creative doesn't mean you'll always choose to be. A person with a bit of common sense is going to know the difference between playing in a jam, and playing in a structured setting.
Malcolm Boyce wrote:Unfortunately Matt, the more you broaden that list, the further you get away from the "definition" of what a musician actually is.
How far away is:
Stage presence.
Good looks.
Ability to get PR.
Would I want to play with someone who can do it all? Yes.
If going down the master list does Madonna have most of the qualities? Yes.
Is she a better musician?
...and I'm with you on that Matt. That's why the "writers" are better "musicians" thing is off the list for me as well.Drumwaiter wrote:I wasn't going there Malcolm, I think the 3 criteria I mentioned sufficed, I was just wondering if I missed anything. The 3 things I mentioned had to do specifically with one's playing of the intrument and producing a sound out of that intended instrument.
Where you are going has more to do with a performer, and making money,ect... which is not mutually exclusive, granted... However you are right, that would be off topic for the purposes of this discussion.
But I'd love to hear more opinions, it makes my day at work go by faster. Thanks guys!
No, I'm merely discussing one aspect of it. You are talking like you've never watched someone try to recreate a wonderfully composed piece of music. That is not a "creative" process, but mostly a technical one. Is someone expressing a love for the music, and the experience? Most definitely, but is it part of the creative end of the musical spectrum?clinton wrote:they'd prolly also take offence to you suggesting that they are not engaging their personal creativity by playing music. You paint a stale picture of a musician.
Malcolm Boyce wrote:If being a non writer music makes you a "lesser musician", when do the "writers" become "better"? Is it only after they've written something or do they already have it before? Are they only better during the act of writing? How long after they write something are they better musicians, or do you have it forever after that? Are you only "better" when you play the music you wrote?
I do on both parts.Drumwaiter wrote:But if we must "grade" musicians let's at least include creativity in the mix, please? And let's not totally rule out technical ability, ...
Malcolm Boyce wrote:I do on both parts.Drumwaiter wrote:But if we must "grade" musicians let's at least include creativity in the mix, please? And let's not totally rule out technical ability, ...
Malcolm Boyce wrote:You are talking like you've never watched someone try to recreate a wonderfully composed piece of music.
RoadDog wrote:I'll stir the pot... where does a group like Toto fit in? A Super Group of lesser musicians? I think not... LOL
clinton wrote:
To simply receit a piece of music that you learned note for note without putting your mark on it (be it only emotional) is boring and happens far more often than you appear to want to admit.
clinton wrote:that makes you a musician Matt.
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