Coverbands

Musical artists and their stuff...
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Postby clinton » Wed May 07, 2008 2:32 pm

Drumwaiter wrote:
clinton wrote:that makes you a musician Matt.


Really? Hmm... that's good. Because I was worried for a second that playing in a cover band had somehow robbed me of that title.



don't get all catty, you've been the voice of reason so far.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Wed May 07, 2008 2:35 pm

clinton wrote:
Drumwaiter wrote:
clinton wrote:that makes you a musician Matt.


Really? Hmm... that's good. Because I was worried for a second that playing in a cover band had somehow robbed me of that title.



don't get all catty, you've been the voice of reason so far.


Oh c'mon... We can't be reasonable all the time can we? Sean got his, I just wanted mine, and now I won't do it again. ;-)
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Postby clinton » Wed May 07, 2008 2:37 pm

hahaha, point taken sir.
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Wed May 07, 2008 4:02 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:
clinton wrote: You are talking like you've never watched someone try to recreate a wonderfully composed piece of music.


you're taking quite a liberty paraphrasing for me but unfortanately you're completely off the mark. There are musicians who can play the exact same piece of music and it can be two completely different experiences. To simply receit a piece of music that you learned note for note without putting your mark on it (be it only emotional) is boring and happens far more often than you appear to want to admit.
There is beauty in playing a piece of music as it was composed, as opposed to your interpretation of it. That involves not putting your "mark" on it. This does happen in many forms of music, and to those who understand it, it is anything but boring.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Wed May 07, 2008 4:07 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:
Malcolm Boyce wrote:
clinton wrote: You are talking like you've never watched someone try to recreate a wonderfully composed piece of music.


you're taking quite a liberty paraphrasing for me but unfortanately you're completely off the mark. There are musicians who can play the exact same piece of music and it can be two completely different experiences. To simply receit a piece of music that you learned note for note without putting your mark on it (be it only emotional) is boring and happens far more often than you appear to want to admit.
There is beauty in playing a piece of music as it was composed, as opposed to your interpretation of it. That involves not putting your "mark" on it. This does happen in many forms of music, and to those who understand it, it is anything but boring.


I agree with this. I'm just not sure that I'm developed enough as a player to remove the filter of my own personality in how I perform. I respect people that can however.

For me, the ultimate musician is one that is not limited by anything in particular and therefor can play music in any situation under any direction and still be the best guy/girl for the job. That requires a variety of skills.
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Postby roachie » Wed May 07, 2008 4:11 pm

It is quite interesting how the 2 forums differ... guess that's why I posted the same topic on the 2 at the same time... wanted to see how they branched off, and who were saying what. I'll likely leave it alone now, everybody who wanted to had their say.
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Wed May 07, 2008 4:11 pm

...and I hate to keep going back to it, but the issue I have is with the generalization of "writers" of music are "better musicians".

What we've concluded today, with Matt's input, is that many things contribute to someone being a talented "musician", creativity being one of them. To say that just being a "writer" of music trumps all other talents is pretty foolish. That would be putting all writers of music in a higher class of "musician", and that would be very wrong.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Wed May 07, 2008 4:32 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote: That would be putting all writers of music in a higher class of "musician", and that would be very wrong.


Agreed.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Wed May 07, 2008 4:36 pm

roachie wrote:It is quite interesting how the 2 forums differ... guess that's why I posted the same topic on the 2 at the same time... wanted to see how they branched off, and who were saying what. I'll likely leave it alone now, everybody who wanted to had their say.


Glad I could help you in your experiment. We can be a tag team, you start a topic because I'm not as good at it. Then I'll keep it going by posting like mad. :-P

It was a good thread though, but I think we've taken it as far as need be. Unless something comes up....
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Postby clinton » Thu May 08, 2008 8:29 am

Malcolm Boyce wrote:...and to those who understand it, it is anything but boring.


*rolls eyes*
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Postby clinton » Thu May 08, 2008 10:04 am

Image
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu May 08, 2008 10:23 am

Hey Clinton, you're a big Toto fan too? That's awesome! :-P
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu May 08, 2008 1:00 pm

clinton wrote:
Malcolm Boyce wrote:...and to those who understand it, it is anything but boring.


*rolls eyes*
Why do you think people play music note for note as it's composed? Because it is boring? My point is, because you said that it is "boring", you must not understand the appeal.

Then next time I'm around David Adams or Chris Buckley, I'll have to ask if they're bored playing classic pieces of composed music.
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu May 08, 2008 1:02 pm

I much prefer this version...

Image
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu May 08, 2008 1:25 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:
clinton wrote:
Malcolm Boyce wrote:...and to those who understand it, it is anything but boring.


*rolls eyes*
Why do you think people play music note for note as it's composed? Because it is boring? My point is, because you said that it is "boring", you must not understand the appeal.

Then next time I'm around David Adams or Chris Buckley, I'll have to ask if they're bored playing classic pieces of composed music.


Interesting point. I do see the appeal in copying a challenging piece of music note for note. As matter of fact sometimes when I'm "creating" my own parts for the same piece, it's my lazy way of not having to learn it properly.

I think it goes back to my original point. Common sense will tell you how to play in all given circumstances. Different gigs require various adjustments on our skill sets. It's not all back and white.

We can't presume to impose our boredom on someone else either. Maybe someone finds playing country boring, maybe I don't care! Maybe I like it and I'll play it anyways. Different strokes.

You can't argue preference.... :roll:
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu May 08, 2008 1:28 pm

Drumwaiter wrote:We can't presume to impose our boredom on someone else either. Maybe someone finds playing country boring, maybe I don't care! Maybe I like it and I'll play it anyways. Different strokes.
Some people find playing Blues phrases boring. Those who understand it, don't.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu May 08, 2008 1:32 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:
Drumwaiter wrote:We can't presume to impose our boredom on someone else either. Maybe someone finds playing country boring, maybe I don't care! Maybe I like it and I'll play it anyways. Different strokes.
Some people find playing Blues phrases boring. Those who understand it, don't.


Even if you understand it, I can accept that it's not for everyone. I'm not sure if the act of understanding something leads to the automatic enjoyment of it.
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Postby clinton » Thu May 08, 2008 1:40 pm

playing somethig note for note doesn't mean you don't still put a personal stamp on it. I'm sure the most classicaly accomplished musicans don't consider themselves as going through the motions, I think they'd be quite insulted at the notion (maybe you can ask yer buddies malcolm) . It takes a passion and understanding to inteerpret the composor's work and that's where the art comes into it.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu May 08, 2008 1:49 pm

clinton wrote:playing somethig note for note doesn't mean you don't still put a personal stamp on it. I'm sure the most classicaly accomplished musicans don't consider themselves as going through the motions, I think they'd be quite insulted at the notion (maybe you can ask yer buddies malcolm) . It takes a passion and understanding to inteerpret the composor's work and that's where the art comes into it.


You guys may be simply be on the same side without knowing it.

I agree with both of you, so obviously there's many common points here. Besides the fact that I happen to respect both of you.
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu May 08, 2008 4:31 pm

clinton wrote:playing somethig note for note doesn't mean you don't still put a personal stamp on it. I'm sure the most classicaly accomplished musicans don't consider themselves as going through the motions, I think they'd be quite insulted at the notion (maybe you can ask yer buddies malcolm) . It takes a passion and understanding to inteerpret the composor's work and that's where the art comes into it.
I think you overestimate the amount of "interpretation" involved in the presentation of a piece that is played in certain situations. This is especially true in classical work, but also extends into other areas, and not just commercial work.

If players were allowed to put their personal stamp on a classical piece, in the setting of a 60 piece orchestra, by the time all those individuals got done with it, would it still sound like the composed piece was intended?

Granted this is an extreme end of the spectrum, but it demonstrates how, and why some individuals find performing something on a strictly technical level to be enjoyable, and some find listening it to be entertaining.

The "art" is in executing the piece as it was written, not in putting your "personal stamp" on it. As Matt mentioned, this is obviously not for every musician, but belittling this exercise as "boring" in a broad statement does players who enjoy this work a disservice.

I just watched two string players with the "Classic Albums" gang play arrangements for pieces on the "Beatles" show. These were charts prepared for them, and I'm sure we could have had David and Sonja Adams play the same charts and it would sound nearly identical. The exercise is in reproducing it as it was written.

This goes back to before recordings allowed others to hear something that was composed. The way an artist's work was heard by many was for it to be written down and performed. This differs from folk music in that things were merely passed down by ear and adapted with the times by the musicians who shared the work. We have heard many "different" folk tunes that are nearly identical to one another with different words or stories because they were fluid, as stories passed down over generations. This is unlike classical music, which sounds the same no matter when and were it is performed, unless it is purposely adapted by an arranger or conductor.

And again, as I said, not everyone who is a great musician wants or needs to put their "stamp" on great music. The enjoyment comes in the exercise of performing it. If that's not for you, that's fine, but don't say they are lesser musicians for falling into that category. Not everyone wants to be a "writer".
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Postby Jef » Fri May 09, 2008 7:42 am

Malcolm Boyce wrote:I think you overestimate the amount of "interpretation" involved in the presentation of a piece that is played in certain situations. This is especially true in classical work, but also extends into other areas, and not just commercial work.

If players were allowed to put their personal stamp on a classical piece, in the setting of a 60 piece orchestra, by the time all those individuals got done with it, would it still sound like the composed piece was intended?

Granted this is an extreme end of the spectrum, but it demonstrates how, and why some individuals find performing something on a strictly technical level to be enjoyable, and some find listening it to be entertaining.

The "art" is in executing the piece as it was written, not in putting your "personal stamp" on it. As Matt mentioned, this is obviously not for every musician, but belittling this exercise as "boring" in a broad statement does players who enjoy this work a disservice.

I just watched two string players with the "Classic Albums" gang play arrangements for pieces on the "Beatles" show. These were charts prepared for them, and I'm sure we could have had David and Sonja Adams play the same charts and it would sound nearly identical. The exercise is in reproducing it as it was written.

This goes back to before recordings allowed others to hear something that was composed. The way an artist's work was heard by many was for it to be written down and performed. This differs from folk music in that things were merely passed down by ear and adapted with the times by the musicians who shared the work. We have heard many "different" folk tunes that are nearly identical to one another with different words or stories because they were fluid, as stories passed down over generations. This is unlike classical music, which sounds the same no matter when and were it is performed, unless it is purposely adapted by an arranger or conductor.

And again, as I said, not everyone who is a great musician wants or needs to put their "stamp" on great music. The enjoyment comes in the exercise of performing it. If that's not for you, that's fine, but don't say they are lesser musicians for falling into that category. Not everyone wants to be a "writer".


I got your back on this one Malcolm.
Being a writer or composer may require that you be somewhat of a musician but being a musician
doesn't necessarily mean you have to be a writer/composer.
Some of the greatest musicians in the world play in cover bands like
...oh I don't know... the New York Philharmonic?
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Postby clinton » Fri May 09, 2008 9:12 am

I think you just like to argue brother....
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Postby Jef » Fri May 09, 2008 9:40 am

clinton wrote:I think you just like to argue brother....


hehehe... not at all my man...
I just wanted to point out that good musicianship doesn't necessarily mean you have to write your own stuff.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Fri May 09, 2008 9:51 am

Jef wrote:
clinton wrote:I think you just like to argue brother....


hehehe... not at all my man...
I just wanted to point out that good musicianship doesn't necessarily mean you have to write your own stuff.


Awesome! ...and Clinton is pointing out that being a good musician isn't all about technique and chops. (different side, same coin)

So.....

Although you may disagree on the distribution of each merit, you can both agree that one requires a bit of both merits to be a musician, yes? If so, then shake hands and and go get ice cream or something... :lol:
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Postby Jef » Fri May 09, 2008 10:13 am

Ice cream??
...nah, make it a Budweiser ;-)
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