calling all singer/songwriters out there...

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calling all singer/songwriters out there...

Postby roachie » Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:12 am

Here's the idea.

Cougars lounge is looking for something to do on a Thursday night. I'm thinking of trying what I tried a while back at Elwoods (sorta) where every week a different local acoustic singer comes in and plays a set. Can be as short as 45 minutes or as long as "until the bar closes". I would do a short opening set of originals, have the featured guest play for however long they want, then close the night with whatever time needs filling.

I have yet to work out the details, but I'm hoping that the guest will get $50 and free drinks for the night.

I'd like to get as many locals on rotation so that there would be plenty of time to advertise in advance... what do you guys think, and who would be keen to sign up?
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Re: calling all singer/songwriters out there...

Postby Jef » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:31 pm

No wonder 'working musicians' can't find work. 50 bucks a night? That's laughable! That's also another reason why I don't play music for a living. Club owners just won't cough up the money any more.
Myself, I wouldn't take my instrument out of the case for less than 100 dollars... and it goes up from there.
I will be totally surprised if you get anyone to do this. And I would bet that anyone who is willing to go out and do a show for 50 bucks probably won't be much of a show.... you know, you get what you pay for.
Sounds like you're putting on some sort of 'talent show' to get the club some cheap entertainment. Although some people like to watch amateur night, it's not for me.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:04 pm

Okay, I agree with you on a few points Jef. But there's another side to consider too.

Let's say I get paid to play 3 or 4 sets a night, and I am properly compensated for it (I do, and I am). But if you think about it, if I didn't have to lug my drums around and only had to play one 45 minute set, on a night that I might be otherwise doing nothing, that's not so terrible. If I got paid $50 a set and didn't have to lug my drums around, I'd be pretty happy... ;-)

I'm just playing devil's advocate. I'm not disagreeing with you, but at the same time and ain't as bad as all that.
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Postby Jef » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:04 pm

In my opinion, I think that those who are willing to go out and work for peanuts, are partially to blame for the lack of good paying gigs.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:40 pm

Agreed. Although, I've never had too hard a time getting a good paying gig around here either. Playing in a professional band that views this as the business that it is, I find is the biggest factor though. There are both good and poor paying jobs in the area. The same is true of any trade, really. But I agree we should try to raise the average still.

A local cover band tried to undercut us by 20% recently, and we stuck to our price, and the purchaser still picked us. But it still comes down to what the purchaser can afford, factoring in the return on that investment. In the case in question, the purchaser likely realized that we didn't "need" the gig if we weren't willing to negotiate fees, thus we're probably successful, etc.

The Cougars Sunday night pay used to be less, but we also used to draw no one and make no money for the bar. Now that the bar is making money, we are properly compensated. Performers and purchasers have to work together to get out of this rut. Many things have to come around simultanenously. If the band sucks and people don't come out and drink, the bar makes no money and has less money to give the bands. If on the other hand the band draws a drinking crowd then they certainly have the right to re-negotiate with the bar as Roach and I have done with Sunday nights.

So all in all, I think those who are willing to go out and play half-assed and draw no crowd are equally partially to blame for good paying gigs. N'est-ce pas?

Let's just see how these Thursday nights progress, if business picks up and the bar makes money then things could change. There's already some pretty talented local artists that are interested, so long as they can draw a consistent crowd, this shouldn't be a problem. But it's also the artists responsibility to represent their own interests as well, if they want more they have to ask for it too.
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Re: calling all singer/songwriters out there...

Postby clinton » Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:04 pm

Jef wrote:Sounds like you're putting on some sort of 'talent show' to get the club some cheap entertainment. Although some people like to watch amateur night, it's not for me.


wow....just wow
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Postby roachie » Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:08 pm

I'd do a 45 minute set for $50 anytime... I'd rather do it for $500 but those gigs don't come easy. This one does. If it's not for you, that's fine, don't sign up. If the bar starts making money from this "talent show", the pay will go up. Gotta start somewhere. I am starting this project as a "get something happenin'" experiment. I hope it goes well and musicians come out and play.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:35 pm

roachie wrote:I'd do a 45 minute set for $50 anytime... I'd rather do it for $500 but those gigs don't come easy. This one does. If it's not for you, that's fine, don't sign up. If the bar starts making money from this "talent show", the pay will go up. Gotta start somewhere. I am starting this project as a "get something happenin'" experiment. I hope it goes well and musicians come out and play.


Basically what I'm saying...
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Re: calling all singer/songwriters out there...

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:20 pm

clinton wrote:
Jef wrote:Sounds like you're putting on some sort of 'talent show' to get the club some cheap entertainment. Although some people like to watch amateur night, it's not for me.


wow....just wow
You lurker you... ;-)
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Postby Jef » Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:57 pm

roachie wrote:I'd do a 45 minute set for $50 anytime... I'd rather do it for $500 but those gigs don't come easy. This one does. If it's not for you, that's fine, don't sign up. If the bar starts making money from this "talent show", the pay will go up. Gotta start somewhere. I am starting this project as a "get something happenin'" experiment. I hope it goes well and musicians come out and play.


Best of luck to you.
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Postby clinton » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:14 pm

Jef wrote:
roachie wrote:I'd do a 45 minute set for $50 anytime... I'd rather do it for $500 but those gigs don't come easy. This one does. If it's not for you, that's fine, don't sign up. If the bar starts making money from this "talent show", the pay will go up. Gotta start somewhere. I am starting this project as a "get something happenin'" experiment. I hope it goes well and musicians come out and play.


Best of luck to you.


so what is it that you do Jef? I assume you're a musician based on your comments.

I actually don't lurk, there usually isn't much to lurk really. I come and visit every now and again. This one caught my attention. Seems like Roachie is trying to get something started and nay-saying seems so typical Saint John.
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Postby roachie » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:55 pm

clinton wrote:nay-saying seems so typical Saint John.


No it's not.
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:48 pm

roachie wrote:
clinton wrote:nay-saying seems so typical Saint John.


No it's not.
roflmao

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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:49 pm

clinton wrote:I actually don't lurk, there usually isn't much to lurk really. ....
Ouch.... :oops:
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Re: calling all singer/songwriters out there...

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:42 am

Jef wrote:No wonder 'working musicians' can't find work. 50 bucks a night? That's laughable!
I didn't see him say they were playing for a whole night. I think it says... one set, as long as you want. Am I correct Roach?
Jef wrote:That's also another reason why I don't play music for a living. ... Myself, I wouldn't take my instrument out of the case for less than 100 dollars... and it goes up from there.
I don't want you to take offense to this, but I think your expectations of this market are another reason. Don't get me wrong, I wish it were different, but it isn't.

Jef wrote:I will be totally surprised if you get anyone to do this. And I would bet that anyone who is willing to go out and do a show for 50 bucks probably won't be much of a show.... you know, you get what you pay for.
Sounds like you're putting on some sort of 'talent show' to get the club some cheap entertainment. Although some people like to watch amateur night, it's not for me.
He already has basic commitments from a few local performers, including our own.... dare I say that... Clinton Charlton... who could play on any proper stage in the country, for a solo acoustic set, and be enjoyed by musicians and fans alike.

Jef wrote:In my opinion, I think that those who are willing to go out and work for peanuts, are partially to blame for the lack of good paying gigs.
Once again, I believe you do get what you pay for. Unfortunately, in what are primarily drinking establishments that offer entertainment, the threshold of what is adequate entertainment is terribly low.

I'm reminded of a great story about a local band that had played a local drinking establishment with fair regularity. They got it into their head that they'd had enough and were going to take the gloves off with their employer about pay. They went in looking for the AFM scale rate for live work here, which isn't ridiculous, but...

I won't say this band was awful, because they weren't that... The entertainment guy at the club said, "What's that in front of your lead singer?" and the drummer said, "What?" and the guy said, "The music stand... What's on the music stand?".... and the drummer said... "Lyrics and stuff..." Then the club guy says, "OK, so do you think a lead singer of a band making Union Scale should have to use lyric sheets to remember the tunes in the set?"

I think the point made there, and I've seen it many times, is that the quality of the local acts is very much in question, grading on a "pro" scale, and it takes quite a few gigs to prove you being worth anywhere near a premium scale.

On a related note, I remember when Imperial Theatre had their "On Deck" series that was geared toward local "acoustic" type performers to play to a hundred or so that actually listen to the music. The pay was better than decent, the venue and the exposure were first rate, and they had a bitch of a time lining up talent to fill the dates.... Go figure.

Lastly, I don't gig a lot these days as a musician, but as an indicator of how things have progressed for me, someone who has worked in the business in this town for 20 years. I started out mixing in clubs for $25 and all the ginger ale I wanted... :oops: It was a way to develop my craft, and build up a rep. After sticking with it, I now can easily demand what I consider to be pretty good rates, on the higher end locally for what I do. I know where I come from financially, and consider it having paid my dues to get where I am today.
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:45 am

Jef wrote:
roachie wrote:I'd do a 45 minute set for $50 anytime... I'd rather do it for $500 but those gigs don't come easy. This one does. If it's not for you, that's fine, don't sign up. If the bar starts making money from this "talent show", the pay will go up. Gotta start somewhere. I am starting this project as a "get something happenin'" experiment. I hope it goes well and musicians come out and play.


Best of luck to you.
last time I checked, Sean is one of few folks locally making a high percentage of his income working in the business, mostly as a performer. He can use the luck, but it's mostly hard work.
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Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:51 am

Drumwaiter wrote:...
So all in all, I think those who are willing to go out and play half-assed and draw no crowd are equally partially to blame for good paying gigs. N'est-ce pas?....
I'm assuming you mean bad paying gigs. You need to get really good and experienced... then you get more money... It's easier than many think.... IMO Just too few do it and stay around these parts.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:23 am

Malcolm Boyce wrote:
Drumwaiter wrote:...
So all in all, I think those who are willing to go out and play half-assed and draw no crowd are equally partially to blame for good paying gigs. N'est-ce pas?....
I'm assuming you mean bad paying gigs. You need to get really good and experienced... then you get more money... It's easier than many think.... IMO Just too few do it and stay around these parts.

Yeah sorry I meant to say "lack of good paying gigs."

I don't know... I don't have a hard time getting the money I want around here. I don't have to travel far either, just had to join a good band that has a 20 year reputation of being pretty consistent... :-P

All in all I think this local music scene is going to get a bit better in the coming years, with the big industrial projects coming up more money will come into the city, people going out and drinking more, etc. When that time comes, our only responsibility is to have our act together and ask for the right amount.
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Re: calling all singer/songwriters out there...

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:43 am

Malcolm Boyce wrote:
I'm reminded of a great story about a local band that had played a local drinking establishment with fair regularity. They got it into their head that they'd had enough and were going to take the gloves off with their employer about pay. They went in looking for the AFM scale rate for live work here, which isn't ridiculous, but...

I won't say this band was awful, because they weren't that... The entertainment guy at the club said, "What's that in front of your lead singer?" and the drummer said, "What?" and the guy said, "The music stand... What's on the music stand?".... and the drummer said... "Lyrics and stuff..." Then the club guy says, "OK, so do you think a lead singer of a band making Union Scale should have to use lyric sheets to remember the tunes in the set?"


I'm curious as to who that was, but I have an idea. I totally agree though, if you can't justify your raise, and make a good argument for it. Then don't ask for it.

Look, I'd love to see musicians wages increase around here, but I'll say one thing... Most of the really good bands around here that stay on top of their shit and treat this as the business that it is, don't complain about money. Because they are making what they want to make, and what they deserve.

I'm going to do my part to tighten up my playing and put on the best show I can with my band, and slowly raise our prices. If everyone did this, little by little we'd see a change. Besides if we put on shows worth seeing, then people will come out to see them and the clubs will be able to afford to pay us what we want anyways.

Like anything in life, you can only control what you yourself are doing. So start there.

This post is not directed to anyone in particular either, I just think that everyone should look at things this way, so that we can collectively get ourselves into a better scene.
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Re: calling all singer/songwriters out there...

Postby Jef » Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:21 am

Malcolm Boyce wrote:
Jef wrote:No wonder 'working musicians' can't find work. 50 bucks a night? That's laughable!
I didn't see him say they were playing for a whole night. I think it says... one set, as long as you want. Am I correct Roach?

yeah... but still 50 bucks ain't much these days.

Malcolm Boyce wrote:
Jef wrote:That's also another reason why I don't play music for a living. ... Myself, I wouldn't take my instrument out of the case for less than 100 dollars... and it goes up from there.
I don't want you to take offense to this, but I think your expectations of this market are another reason. Don't get me wrong, I wish it were different, but it isn't.

No offense taken.

Malcolm Boyce wrote:
Jef wrote:I will be totally surprised if you get anyone to do this. And I would bet that anyone who is willing to go out and do a show for 50 bucks probably won't be much of a show.... you know, you get what you pay for.
Sounds like you're putting on some sort of 'talent show' to get the club some cheap entertainment. Although some people like to watch amateur night, it's not for me.
He already has basic commitments from a few local performers, including our own.... dare I say that... Clinton Charlton... who could play on any proper stage in the country, for a solo acoustic set, and be enjoyed by musicians and fans alike.

....my point exactly, shouldn't performers of that caliber be getting paid a more decent salary?

Malcolm Boyce wrote:
Jef wrote:In my opinion, I think that those who are willing to go out and work for peanuts, are partially to blame for the lack of good paying gigs.
Once again, I believe you do get what you pay for. Unfortunately, in what are primarily drinking establishments that offer entertainment, the threshold of what is adequate entertainment is terribly low.

... the quality of the local acts is very much in question, grading on a "pro" scale, and it takes quite a few gigs to prove you being worth anywhere near a premium scale.

.... but once you have proved your worth, you find yourself priced out of the market. It seems that most clubs would rather pay low scale to a half assed performer than pay good bucks for a quality show.

Malcolm Boyce wrote:Lastly, I don't gig a lot these days as a musician, but as an indicator of how things have progressed for me, someone who has worked in the business in this town for 20 years. I started out mixing in clubs for $25 and all the ginger ale I wanted... :oops: It was a way to develop my craft, and build up a rep. After sticking with it, I now can easily demand what I consider to be pretty good rates, on the higher end locally for what I do. I know where I come from financially, and consider it having paid my dues to get where I am today.

...so you wouldn't go out and do a show for 50 bucks either, eh?
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Postby Jef » Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:48 am

clinton wrote:so what is it that you do Jef? I assume you're a musician based on your comments.

I actually don't lurk, there usually isn't much to lurk really. I come and visit every now and again. This one caught my attention. Seems like Roachie is trying to get something started and nay-saying seems so typical Saint John.


What I do is, I work at a regular day job... you know, the kind of job that sort of sucks, but it's a steady income.
I do a little sound engineering work too, some studio work but mostly live production.

Also, yes I am a musician and have played in many bands over the years (I'm probably older than most of you). But I don't play as seriously as I used to. Sadly, the days making a decent living as a club band have long past.

Thirdly, my 'nay-saying' is my own personal opinion (I'm not even from Saint John), and I'm just opening up a discussion here, not trying to dis anyone.
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Postby clinton » Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:04 am

hey... thanks for the kind words Malcolm!
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:48 am

Roach needs to post simultaneous threads in m-audio and g-bike forums more often. Last time he did we got this little gem about musicianship. Now were are having another healthy debate about the business side of it. I think these little exchanges are great because they envoke thougth and keep important topics in the foreground.
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Postby Jef » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:14 am

Drumwaiter wrote:.... I think these little exchanges are great because they envoke thougth and keep important topics in the foreground.


...and it's a great little distraction from the drudgery of the day job.
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Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:47 am

Jef wrote:
Drumwaiter wrote:.... I think these little exchanges are great because they envoke thougth and keep important topics in the foreground.


...and it's a great little distraction from the drudgery of the day job.

Hahahahaha... Amen to that. ;-)
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