SOPA/PIPA

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SOPA/PIPA

Postby macrae11 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:44 pm

I know this is an American bill, but it's getting so much interest from the teh internetz, that I thought it might be worth discussing. I'll start things off with this thoughtful, calm assessment of the situation:
http://www.copyhype.com/2012/01/hey-wha ... o-to-sopa/

This is my favorite comment on the page:
Henri Tuhola
• Posted January 18, 2012 at 2:12 pm • Permalink wrote:

SOPA is quickly becoming demise of the nefarious antipiracy companies and others that steal from the public domain and harms our education system. Please stay on your path as it will make your industry obsolete within few years.

It’ll be the first steps towards a society where piracy is widespread and secured as a basic human right, written into law.


In the words of Dwight Shrout: "Idiot."

I find it alarming that so much ado has been made about peoples ability to obtain free stuff, when such comparatively little noise was made about the far more disastrous NDAA legislation.

PS I'm also thinking of starting a mirror thread on GC just to see peoples heads asplod.
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Re: SOPA/PIPA

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:57 pm

macrae11 wrote:I find it alarming that so much ado has been made about peoples ability to obtain free stuff, when such comparatively little noise was made about the far more disastrous NDAA legislation.

I also find it interesting that the president signed the NDAA (with reservations facepalm ) but that the white house is completely against SOPA/PIPA as is stated in their press release.

macrae11 wrote:PS I'm also thinking of starting a mirror thread on GC just to see peoples heads asplod.

Absolutely. It would make the thread of the year 2012 list.
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Re: SOPA/PIPA

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:20 am

And from a link off that page that Andrew posted:

Why this is going to hurt startups and tech innovation

One of the big reasons why a company is able to go from a few computers in a garage to a multi-billion dollar company is due to the open nature of the internet. The barrier to entry on creating a new site or product is very low. Adding legislation that regulates this open platform will seriously hamper future business.

Entrepreneurs will need to invest in legal counsel to ensure they can properly respond to a PROTECT IP or SOPA order. New sites and products will need to invest precious development time to build-in censorship utilities so that they can remove links to foreign sites. New advertising networks will need to calculate the new risk of displaying ads for or on foreign websites. Sites will also be heavily discouraged from using non-US domain names due to the broad language in the bills on how they may be defined.

Adding regulation to one of the few growing sectors in the U.S. will result in a "chilling effect" and will push individuals and business to start ventures elsewhere. Threatening this existing ecosystem for the purpose of making it slightly harder to pirate movies is a very dangerous tradeoff.

In Conclusion

It is my strong belief that both PROTECT IP and SOPA:

Will not stop the piracy they are targeting
Contain language that is highly ambiguous and extremely broad making them ripe for abuse, and
Introduce regulation and enforce censorship on what should be a free and open internet.


I enjoy when these "tech" industry crooks talk about the hardship this kind of legislation will create for their business, while ignoring the reality of what has happened to producers' ability to control what they have every right to... Tools need to be put into place to make it harder for the widespread misuse that is taking place every day. If we wait for absolutely perfect, 100% effective regulations, it will never happen. We need to try and keep in mind that the majority of people trying to effect changes to the system have the best interests of the general public in mind. This really isn't some nefarious plot to reduce people's freedom. There are already plenty of laws in place that do that just fine...
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Re: SOPA/PIPA

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:42 am

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Re: SOPA/PIPA

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:50 am

Malcolm Boyce wrote:This really isn't some nefarious plot to reduce people's freedom. There are already plenty of laws in place that do that just fine...


That remains to be seen... I'm on the fence. I don't know how anyone can be so certain in either direction at this point. I presume that everything in the US is a nefarious plot to reduce people's freedoms just based on previous experience alone. Why would this piece of legislation be any different?
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Re: SOPA/PIPA

Postby Jef » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:03 am

This explains some of the crazy shit that the US Congress is trying to enforce:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... zqMoOk9NWc
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Re: SOPA/PIPA

Postby macrae11 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:32 am

Jef wrote:This explains some of the crazy shit that the US Congress is trying to enforce:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... zqMoOk9NWc
This actually merely stands to show how so many people are attempting to obfuscate, and misrepresent the acts. This video is a perfect example of what most people are doing, which is take one or two words from the act and expanding them hyperbolically with no regard for other passages in the bill. Enables or facilitates!!!! OMG!!!! Well if you read the sentence DIRECTLY PRECEDING these words, it has to be a site PRIMARILY designed for piracy. So YouTube, Facebook, CNN, Vimeo, Khan Academy, etc etc, do not fall into this list. Now if for example CNN started advertising for Pirate Bay on their home page, they could potentially be in violation. If you start advertising for the uptown drug dealers, you're going to get in trouble with the cops too.

Also the whole copyright owner having a "whim" about a site infringing is BS. First of you have to get a court order, which requires evidence, and there was, and maybe still is a provision that making an incorrect claim will require the claimant to pay all legal fees for the defense. The whole guilty until proven innocent schtick is pure fabrication. If the cops suspect you of moving stolen goods, they don't have to prove you're guilty, they just have to get a warrant to search your home/place of business etc, just like in this law, and you can't sue the cops if they don't find anything.

There's been almost no balanced look at these bills, its just been an absolute herd mentality of google propaganda with, as usual, the herd having no idea what the deal actually is. But slogans move fast on the internet. "THEY'RE GOING TO TAKE AWAY MY FREE PORN!!!!! ME ANGRY!!!!"

Now I'm not saying these bills are perfect, and they're still under revision, but they're nothing like they've been represented by teh internetz.
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Re: SOPA/PIPA

Postby macrae11 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:50 am

Mathieu Benoit wrote:
Malcolm Boyce wrote:This really isn't some nefarious plot to reduce people's freedom. There are already plenty of laws in place that do that just fine...


That remains to be seen... I'm on the fence. I don't know how anyone can be so certain in either direction at this point. I presume that everything in the US is a nefarious plot to reduce people's freedoms just based on previous experience alone. Why would this piece of legislation be any different?


Right and yet the vast majority of internotters are certain that it's going to destroy their lives. It's almost impossible to find any balanced review of the bills. I'm more in favor of PIPA from what I've read of it as it seems much more evenhanded in it's approach. And by looking at the members of the house or senate, I totally understand your skepticism, but the wording has to be in the bills to support deleterious acts and I just don't see it.
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Re: SOPA/PIPA

Postby Christian LeBlanc » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:51 am

But - they're taking away facebook!
Last edited by Christian LeBlanc on Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SOPA/PIPA

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:26 am

My point is that I don't know and I fall into a catagory of 98% of the people that don't really know anything enough to be so polar about this sort of thing. So how people can be so sure of themselves where this stuff is concerned is beyond me... They often make these things obtuse on purpose so that even educated folks get confused.
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Re: SOPA/PIPA

Postby Christian LeBlanc » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:58 am

My contrarian nature, combined with my apathetic nature, had me immediately suspicious of the uproar, especially considering how you're not allowed to disagree...however, all them there blackouts yesterday at least taught me to take it a bit more seriously.

Still, I'm seeing very few alternatives to SOPA/PIPA being suggested, but it could just be a matter of the few and far sage ideas being buried under a landslide of panic. Killing (or at least regulating) torrents might be a good place to start, but what do I know.
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Re: SOPA/PIPA

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:47 pm

macrae11 wrote:
Jef wrote:This explains some of the crazy shit that the US Congress is trying to enforce:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... zqMoOk9NWc
This actually merely stands to show how so many people are attempting to obfuscate, and misrepresent the acts. This video is a perfect example of what most people are doing, which is take one or two words from the act and expanding them hyperbolically with no regard for other passages in the bill. Enables or facilitates!!!! OMG!!!! Well if you read the sentence DIRECTLY PRECEDING these words, it has to be a site PRIMARILY designed for piracy. So YouTube, Facebook, CNN, Vimeo, Khan Academy, etc etc, do not fall into this list. Now if for example CNN started advertising for Pirate Bay on their home page, they could potentially be in violation. If you start advertising for the uptown drug dealers, you're going to get in trouble with the cops too.

Also the whole copyright owner having a "whim" about a site infringing is BS. First of you have to get a court order, which requires evidence, and there was, and maybe still is a provision that making an incorrect claim will require the claimant to pay all legal fees for the defense. The whole guilty until proven innocent schtick is pure fabrication. If the cops suspect you of moving stolen goods, they don't have to prove you're guilty, they just have to get a warrant to search your home/place of business etc, just like in this law, and you can't sue the cops if they don't find anything.
All this.

Once again. My favourite thing these cowboys keep pounding us with is the hardships their sites may fall into if a bill like these gets passed. No worries about the pillaging of intellectual property that has had huge impact on the well being of other industries.

Many of these businesses have profited greatly from the free for all that is the current state of the "internet". As was mentioned by William Wittman on another thread... Why would a kid need an iPod that holds 10,000 songs if they actually cost $.99 a piece?
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Re: SOPA/PIPA

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:06 pm

I think both sides of the debate are talking out of their ass unless they took part in creating the bill and/or have read it fully and understand not just the word of the law but the essense of it. Raise your hand all of you who have gotten your information on this bill mostly second hand? Malcolm... I'm looking at you. The only reason I'm not looking at Andrew is that I suspect he's crazy enough to have actually the bill itself (at least in part.)

I haven't. I have so much shit to deal with right now between my home life, work and the studio that I'm on the verge of ending up in the loonie bin. But I'm still not crazy enough to take anyone's word on anything anymore and I think it is largely inconsequential. The bill will pass if enough money backs it up, not if it's "right" or "wrong". If the people with the most money want it to succeed I bet it will, if the money is stacked on failure than I believe it will fail. I believe that whether or not I decidate a day or two (or three?) to reading that bill, the outcome is already determined and I've wasted that time by not being productive with MY life. What makes you think that yelling at the girl in the horror movie to not go in the basement will in fact make her change her mind? She will die at the hands of that monster if the script says so, and your yelling about it in the theater doesn't change that fact.
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Re: SOPA/PIPA

Postby macrae11 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:23 pm

I totally get the apathy Matt, really I do, but there's more to this passing than money. A lot of these politicians are getting paid by industry to pass these bills, but for the most part they're, also worried about getting re-elected. And right now the vast majority of people who are screaming at them are saying they won't get re-elected if they vote for this bill. I would also guess the majority of voting members of congress and the senate aren't being directly financed by parties on either side of this argument. Indirectly probably yes, but not directly.
All in all, I think the bill(s) is small potatoes. The real big issue here is peoples attitudes, and how well they've been brainwashed by tech. If nothing else this raising IP to the forefront of peoples consciousness, which is a good thing, as long as they can receive balanced information, which in this case they're definitely not. The ones with at least half a brain, like Christian(I"m actually assuming you have a whole brain buddy!) will view the brouhaha with skepticism, but it's still hard to find the information to balance things out, and you really have to look for it. The more people are actually conscious of the fact that they're stealing, and killing peoples jobs, as opposed to passively consuming everything that falls into their fat gobs, the better the chance that someday they'll wake up. So I think that that's our job, working in conjunction with content creators to raise awareness and educate people, which is what this conversation is all about. Some people it will just make them more prone to theft, but those are the people I don't care about anyways. A little DNS blocking isn't going to stop them.

As to reading the bill, yes I have read large parts of it, but certainly not the whole thing. And of the parts I have read I can't claim to understand it all. But everywhere I've seen someone screaming "LOOK THEY"RE GOING TO TAKE AWAY MY LOLCATS!!!", when I finally get to read the whole section they're talking about, and not just a tiny part taken out of context, it always seems they're full of shit.
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Re: SOPA/PIPA

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:32 pm

Mathieu Benoit wrote:Raise your hand all of you who have gotten your information on this bill mostly second hand? Malcolm... I'm looking at you.
So, first hand information is having been involved in creating one of these pieces of legislation?

If you're going to discount any opinions that haven't had a lawyer's understanding of a document, and keep in mind there'll be many interpretations from a legal perspective, nothing will matter to you.

I'd like to point out that many in the anti regulation camp are also of the opinion that the "internet" is fine as it is. I truly hope most people aren't of that mindset.
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Re: SOPA/PIPA

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:01 pm

Malcolm Boyce wrote:
Mathieu Benoit wrote:Raise your hand all of you who have gotten your information on this bill mostly second hand? Malcolm... I'm looking at you.
So, first hand information is having been involved in creating one of these pieces of legislation?

Cherry picking from my post does not make you right. I clearly included people that have actually read it. Since you have danced around that question, I'll presume you have not read it? It's okay... Neither have I!

Malcolm Boyce wrote:If you're going to discount any opinions that haven't had a lawyer's understanding of a document, and keep in mind there'll be many interpretations from a legal perspective, nothing will matter to you.

My point is that I consider the source. Andrew and you may be in agreement 100%, I still trust his reasoning better if he's actually taken the time to read it himself. If you have read it yourself... then I will listen to you. I'm sick of this foolish game of telephone from both camps. Anyone can say anything they want on the internet and if you sound smart enough then you must be right! There are false prophets everywhere, I turst no one on either side since they all have the belief that they are right as a matter of principle. I doubt it's that balck and white.

Malcolm Boyce wrote:I'd like to point out that many in the anti regulation camp are also of the opinion that the "internet" is fine as it is. I truly hope most people aren't of that mindset.

I'm willing to bet that they are of that mindset, if that mindset is to their fiscal advantage. The general public is clearly not above illegally downloading things since it's easy and so far the odds of you going to jail over it are about this same as getting hit by lighting while on your way to cashing in the winning lottery ticket. The problem is that people have gotten very used to doing this. If something is accepted for long enough people will call it a "right" regardless of the laws or ethics involved. These people are heavily invested in the status quo.

But money is involved in all of it, IMHO. Who is getting it, and who is not. Freedom is a scapegoat, and so is protecting IP. In the end it's about who gets to keep the money. The consumers want to keep their money and there is a whole hell of a lot of them in that boat.

Personally? I buy CDs when I want to listen to an artist and support them. If I want to listen to Rihanna, I go on youtube. Should I be paying youtube? Maybe I should be.
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Re: SOPA/PIPA

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:27 pm

http://matthewkiichiheafy.tumblr.com/post/16121147158/another-massive-check-from-matt-heafy

Well... I didn't really care what he thought to begin with anyways. He's a bit of a child. But my point with this post is that if I didn't know any better I'd think that what he was saying was a matter of fact and there are a lot of idiots like this online that have a lot of twitter followers...
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Re: SOPA/PIPA

Postby macrae11 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:50 pm

I get what you're saying Matt, but we're making the assumption here, at least for this conversation, that everyone here has a brain and can use a modicum of judgment when analyzing a source. Obviously almost every source out there has varying levels of BS, so you have to triangulate everything, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to get close to the truth. Just much more difficult and time consuming.
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Re: SOPA/PIPA

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:00 pm

macrae11 wrote:I get what you're saying Matt, but we're making the assumption here, at least for this conversation, that everyone here has a brain and can use a modicum of judgment when analyzing a source. Obviously almost every source out there has varying levels of BS, so you have to triangulate everything, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to get close to the truth. Just much more difficult and time consuming.


The truth... Is that even an absolute concept anymore? Seems to me that everyone knows the truth about everything. There's a reasons that truthiness was the word of the year in 2006.

So any predictions?
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Re: SOPA/PIPA

Postby macrae11 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:51 pm

Well I think truth is more or less absolute, but it's often got a heavy coat of vaseline on it. Often hard to see where it really is, or even get a hold of it until the relatively distant future. Although to far in the future and it usually gets completely rewritten anyways.

Predictions?
I think the bills from the House and Senate will be amalgamated, leaning towards the PIPA version. I think they'll pass, but depending on how toothless they become, Obama will veto or not, and if he veto's I'd give it a 50% chance of survival in the rewrite phase.
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Re: SOPA/PIPA

Postby Mathieu Benoit » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:59 pm

He won't veto it... He'll just sign it with reservations. He has no balls.
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Re: SOPA/PIPA

Postby macrae11 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:01 pm

While I agree with your assessment regarding his lack of testes, this is an election year, and things are going to be a little different starting soon. This is a very unpopular bill and it would be very easy, and a nice boost to his ratings if he were to can it.
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Re: SOPA/PIPA

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:49 am

I had an interesting conversation with a friend about this topic today. His take on sites like Wiki and Google going dark to protest these bills was interesting to me since he was buying this was all those companies looking out for the best interests of the public at hand, and not their financial best interests.

Regarding Obama, someone mentioned on another channel that it would be interesting if some of his high profile supporters from the entertainment community were to drop a dime and let him know how they feel about continuing to allow this type of IP theft to go unchallenged. Can you say, election time?

Just to be forthcoming, I'm not "Pro" any particular bill in this case, but I do believe it's time we see something to help level things off after all these years of it being like the wild west out here. I also am not part of the conspiracy theory, tinfoil hat brigade that believe this is one of the signs of the end of the free world as we know it. No Matt, I have not read any of these entire documents, but none of the excerpts that I have read, or the varied interpretations, have me frightened that this type of tool would be a bad thing to have in place to help content creators get some control over who makes money with their work.

We work in such a small market, with such a small piece of the pie in play, and even I have worked on projects that have ended up on foreign sites in a pay-per download situation. People who don't know any better, who Google a name, and get a site that appears to be legit with a download here button... well, you get the idea. I'm not saying people would be making millions, or even thousands, but the fact that there is currently no way for us to deal with sites like these shows you just how far things have been let go.

The fact that service providers are selling bandwidth to users that is promoted specifically citing uses that for the most part are only necessary to the majority of users if they are downloading unauthorized content.

The fact that an entire generation for the most part doesn't see downloading massive amounts of unauthorized media as ethically and morally wrong is the biggest problem.
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Re: SOPA/PIPA

Postby Malcolm Boyce » Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:22 am

No more megaupload... This has been in the making for a while:

http://techland.time.com/2012/01/19/fed ... g-website/
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Re: SOPA/PIPA

Postby macrae11 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:05 pm

What the anonomorons don't realize is that their actions are going to be what leads to the censorship of the internet, not taking down illegal pirate sites. They're all sitting in their moms basement eating cheatos complaining about their right to free speech being infringed because they can't download the latest Office episode(which featured some Maritime music from In Flight Safety*). All the while, they're participating in border line terrorism stifling actual free speech which is going to cause some real draconian laws to protect people from their assaults.




*Fun fact, I used to play basketball in high school with Danny Ledwell, keyboard player for IFS.
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